Lets hope that the full force of the law is used and prison sentences handed down.
I very much doubt that this will happen though.

Attempetd murder with a weapon? Or will they just claim to be bad shots?

They must have thought this woman was a garden pest that needed controlling eh Druid?

BAN ALL AIR RIFLES NOW.

How predictable that you should jump on the BANdwagon.

Andy Jones wrote:
They must have thought this woman was a garden pest that needed controlling eh Druid? BAN ALL AIR RIFLES NOW.

You really are a dipstick Andy. Count up the reports of knives used in attacks recently. I know you did claim that "Knives when used as a weapon can only be used at short distance", outstanding observation! Didn't seem to do that girl in Bury much good. You really must find something better to do with your wasted life than to keep chipping up on here. "Ban all air rifles now". It's not going to happen. Just sentence those who mis-use them with a deterrent sentence.

Ban all Bandwagons now!

By the way Andy. I've never shot a "Garden pest" in my life. Even airguns in their smallest calibre are a bit overkill for Greenfly.

pah, Druid, you can have some of my squirrels then!

Once again Druid attempts to deflect the attention from the airgun problem by stating that there are other problems with knives. It's a *total* non-argument to suggest that we should ignore one problem because there are worse problems. Shall we ignore all rapes because there are murders going on? Obviously not. We should do all we can to tackle *all* problems. We can ban airguns and ammo and have them taken out of the stores. It'll take perhaps years for home stock to run out but it will happen (perhaps there could be an amnesty), and it'll result in a reduction in episodes like this.

"Just sentence those who mis-use them with a deterrent sentence" Er.. wouldn't that be a bit late? Wait for them to strike and then punish them? Let's have some prevention, not retrospective punishment.

OldBoltonian wrote:
pah, Druid, you can have some of my squirrels then!

Are these the garden pests that you use an airgun to shoot? How effective is that at killing them? What problems do they cause in the first place? (we have squirrels quite regular and they don't seem to do any harm). Do you always get rid of the bodies? When was the last time you did this?

ban all banning of bandwagons! Just felt the need to contribute

Like it's any of your business, Mr Jones!

OldBoltonian wrote:
Like it's any of your business, Mr Jones!

I had a feeling you'd avoid answering the questions. So much for the strength of your arguments on this.

I have a feeling you'll be happier living in Sudan. Good riddance.

Litle scenario.
Andy Jones is walking through the park late at night with his wife. He has a nice little 9mm Beretta in his pocket. Two big hairy hoodies armed with knives come up. They are going to stab him and rape his wife, or maybe stab his wife and rape him.
The choices are 1. Shout very loudly for the Police to give you a crime number,2. Shoot the sods or 3. Talk them out of it with your eloquant use of English. I'd shoot the sods.

Druid wrote:
Litle scenario. Andy Jones is walking through the park late at night with his wife. He has a nice little 9mm Beretta in his pocket. Two big hairy hoodies armed with knives come up. They are going to stab him and rape his wife, or maybe stab his wife and rape him. The choices are 1. Shout very loudly for the Police to give you a crime number,2. Shoot the sods or 3. Talk them out of it with your eloquant use of English. I'd shoot the sods.

Chances are you'd do time for it too. Whose to say you didn't just wander into the park and shoot two people? Dead people can't argue back. Oh and how come if we've got access to the gun, the other guys haven't? And lastly, I don't think I'd walk through the park late at night. If you're doing something such that you think taking a gun is a sensible precaution, then I'd be tempted to rethink what I was doing in the first place.

Little info re squirrels Andy. Airguns are excellent a killing squirrels and are being used to great effect in protecting the native British Red. Because squirrels tend to live in woodland it's dificult to use anything else. You can use traps, but it's illegal to release a non-native species back into the wild. You could use poison but thats non-selective and other protected species will die.
Get off your soapbox before you fall and injure your gob.

FOR THE love of god get real a Woman was shot!(Der! Bird Brains)Squirrels!
Get back on Track

I think the score is Andy 1 Rednecks 0.

Druid wrote:
Little info re squirrels Andy. Airguns are excellent a killing squirrels and are being used to great effect in protecting the native British Red. Because squirrels tend to live in woodland it's dificult to use anything else. You can use traps, but it's illegal to release a non-native species back into the wild. You could use poison but thats non-selective and other protected species will die. Get off your soapbox before you fall and injure your gob.

Is any of this any reason why the general public should have access to airguns then? Not at all. Once again you seek to answer a different point. Unless of course you're suggesting that we should all buy a gun and go down to the park to shoot some squirrels? Ooops, I missed, shot a kid. If there are professionals using airguns for pest control, that's one thing - they need to be licensed and accountable for their actions. They're not the sort of people who will start shooting at strangers and pets for a laugh with a gun they bought anonymously from a high street shop.

Get off your soapbox before you fall and injure your gob.

I would suggest you properly think things though before posting.

You really are out of touch Andy. It's members of the "General public" who do most of the pest control on farms and Estates. It's a legal requirement for landowners to keep pests down and the airgun is an excellent way of doing this. I have never condoned irresponsible use of airguns, in fact I would be quite happy to see sentences increased for impropper use. You obviously don't have the first idea of gun safety or use. There are thousands of people using airguns in a corect and propper manner and to deny them that right just because society can't control the few is stupid.
You obviously have some form of bee in your bonnet regarding airguns but you don't seem to comment on topics that are far more serious. You also fail to understand the law. You cannot by a gun anonymously from any shop. You have to produce evidence of age and residence which is logged for later inspection by the Police Licencing Authority.

Please, Druid, don't waste any more of your time or give any more oxygen to this inane numbskull. He obviously has no garden to speak of; has never seen squirrels in action; and has a deep-seated authority complex so often shared by those, like him, who think only "they", the "powers that be", the "state", should have the power or ability to do anything. He'd be so much happier in some tinpot despot-ridden backwater (I was going to say Sudan again but then - that just about sums up where Britain is headed nowadays, doesn't it, thanks to Mr Jones and his ilk....)

There is no real need for air guns, the only people who "enjoy" using them are kids who shouldn't have them in the first place so why bother having them at all? The temptation of having weapons such as these is too much for simple minded idiots (of which there are plenty with the numbers rising rapidly!).

Pest control is not a valid argument as I have experience of this with grey squirrels and there are viable alternatives such as traps that allow the smaller reds through, but really I think this area is a desperate tactic to divert away from the fact that these things can kill people in the wrong hands. As with real guns, there is no need for them to be carried by the public in a civilised society.

forward thinker wrote:
There is no real need for air guns, the only people who "enjoy" using them are kids who shouldn't have them in the first place so why bother having them at all? The temptation of having weapons such as these is too much for simple minded idiots (of which there are plenty with the numbers rising rapidly!). Pest control is not a valid argument as I have experience of this with grey squirrels and there are viable alternatives such as traps that allow the smaller reds through, but really I think this area is a desperate tactic to divert away from the fact that these things can kill people in the wrong hands. As with real guns, there is no need for them to be carried by the public in a civilised society.

There are many people who "enjoy" using airguns for both target shooting and also pest control.
There are an awful lot of things that can kill in the wrong hands (maybe a house brick). I would be interested "forward thinker" in how you kill the squirrels you catch in your traps that lets the "Red" through. Being a "forward thinker" you will have thought of that.
Airguns are perfectly lawful and as long as they are used in a lawful manner there's nothing wrong with them. Like a lot of other things they can be abused. This abuse should be punished severely, as such abuse of any other inanimate object that causes injury to people.

isn't there a lot of tripe on thee pages from people who have no idea of what they are talking about? airguns used to shoot people, like this unfortunate lady in the original story, are used by those sub-humans who find anti-social behaviour quite the norm, and probably come from new bury or farnworth! We who use them both for pest control, ie rats and grey squirells, do wo with the upmost regard for safety, and they are also a form of great entertainment when used for target shooting. I own three, and they are similarly used by my young son, who is respectful, responisble, well-educated, polite and I am proud of him. Can people like jones and other estate dwellers, who have probably never seen the damage done by these vermin, say the same for their kids. or are they incapable of reproducing due to their lack of intelligence? time to ban all bandwagons, stick to the point and censor idiots who spout off with a loose and ill-informed gob.

It's members of the "General public" who do most of the pest control on farms and Estates.

We're all members of the public depending on which demographic you want to choose, but in this instance, it's not the man in the street. These are people with an actual requirement to own one and ought to be restricted to getting them through proper channels, not from high street stores. There are people whose jobs require the use of dynamite (perhaps the late Fred Dibnah, and people working in a quarry). I'd hate to think they could just go and buy it from TNT-R-Us...

It's a legal requirement for landowners to keep pests down

Oh yeah? What sort of land? What sort of pests? How do they quantify the numbers required? Who checks that they are performing this task? Most homeowners own land, are they bound by this law too? Please provide a URL for this law.

and the airgun is an excellent way of doing this.

Again, tell us what sort of pests are *best* addressed with an airgun.

I have never condoned irresponsible use of airguns, in fact I would be quite happy to see sentences increased for impropper use.

Nobody has said you have condonded it! You're just condoning a reactionary rather than preventative solution. That's pretty much in place now, and we can see that it doesn't really work. People being punished doesn't really help the victims.

You obviously don't have the first idea of gun safety or use. There are thousands of people using airguns in a corect and propper manner and to deny them that right just because society can't control the few is stupid.

If they had some reasonable use to be sold to the general public, I'd agree. However, they simply haven't.

You obviously have some form of bee in your bonnet regarding airguns but you don't seem to comment on topics that are far more serious.

Again, you seem to think this is some kind of argument. It isn't.

You also fail to understand the law. You cannot by a gun anonymously from any shop. You have to produce evidence of age and residence which is logged for later inspection by the Police Licencing Authority.

I fail to see how this helps in any real way, other than if you're dumb enough to fire your airgun from the vicinity of your own house. Again, it's a step to help punishment after the incident, not prevent the incidents.

time to ban all bandwagons, stick to the point and censor idiots who spout off with a loose and ill-informed gob.

Those who disagree with you, you mean? <sigh>

Andy Jones wrote:

time to ban all bandwagons, stick to the point and censor idiots who spout off with a loose and ill-informed gob.

Those who disagree with you, you mean? <sigh>

disagree by all means, but only if you use facts and not emotional ban-everything I don't understand' comments.

I have never understood why anyone would want to kill anything/one. Do people actually enjoy the feeling they get from it. Is it a power thing or maybe a macho one? I would be very interested to find out.

berushka wrote:

Andy Jones wrote:

time to ban all bandwagons, stick to the point and censor idiots who spout off with a loose and ill-informed gob.

Those who disagree with you, you mean? &lt;sigh&gt;

disagree by all means, but only if you use facts and not emotional ban-everything I don't understand' comments.

I'm saying ban airguns from being on sale to the general public because of the injuries that idiots within the general public cause. There's no good reason for them to be available on the high street to the general public.

You see what I mean There's the "general public: and then there's Andy's special ones, the favoured elite, the "they" who we can all rely on to be professional, trustworthy, the guardians of public safety and morality; don't forget, the State knows best. Just ask Gordon.....

What you think of "Propper" chanels are obviously different to what other people think. Landowners as specified earlier would consist of Farmers and Estate owners.
As for pests that are considered air rifle quarry the following:
Brown Rat, Mice (except dormice), Rabbit, Grey Squirrel, Mink, Weasel,Stoat. The last two are rarely shot. Birds that are considered pests are as follows: Crow, Collared Dove, Great Blackbacked Gull, Lessor Blackbacked Gull, Herring Gull, Jackdaw, Jay. Magpie, Ferral Pigeon, Rook, Woodpigeon.
As for people using airguns, they don't have to have your authority, you don't count, they are using them legally. If not they deserve punishment.
It was you who stated you could buy a gun anywhere anomymously, I was correcting you.

Sunny wrote:
I have never understood why anyone would want to kill anything/one. Do people actually enjoy the feeling they get from it. Is it a power thing or maybe a macho one? I would be very interested to find out.

Are you a Veggie? If not it may come as a surprise that meat doesn't grow in those little plastic trays.

Druid wrote:

Sunny wrote: I have never understood why anyone would want to kill anything/one. Do people actually enjoy the feeling they get from it. Is it a power thing or maybe a macho one? I would be very interested to find out.

Are you a Veggie? If not it may come as a surprise that meat doesn't grow in those little plastic trays.

Do you eat everything that you shoot then?

Druid wrote:
There are many people who "enjoy" using airguns for both target shooting and also pest control.

So you're saying that they "enjoy" using them for pest control. They get fun from shooting squirrels and mice. Nice people.

forward thinker wrote:
Pest control is not a valid argument as I have experience of this with grey squirrels and there are viable alternatives such as traps that allow the smaller reds through, but really I think this area is a desperate tactic to divert away from the fact that these things can kill people in the wrong hands. As with real guns, there is no need for them to be carried by the public in a civilised society.

You're so right. Isn't it odd how many of these people who have pest problems also are members of gun clubs and have multiple guns. Sheesh, no-one's buying the pathetic pest-control argument, you're all just people who enjoy shooting little animals. I don't blame you for not wanting to admit it, it's a bit sad and pathetic after all.

I no longer shoot for pest control, I now only target shoot. There are however a lot of people who do eat the rabbits and squirrels they shoot. It's sometimes surprising that Golfers think that there are only ever 18 holes on a Golf Course but never ask why, Horseowners never seem to bother about their horses breaking legs in rabbit holes, I wonder why.
When I did shoot for pest control it was for a purpose and it just didn't arise whether it was enjoyable or not. The landowners wanted pests controlled to protect their livestock. You probably haven't seen lambs with their eyes pecked out, or horses put down with a broken leg after running it down a rabbit hole. The native Red squirrel is now severely endangered because the larger squirrelpox carrying Grey is killing them out either by starvation or by infection. The numbers of song birds that are decimated by the more predatory corvids You can enjoy pest control without actually enjoying the killing. You are out in the country enjoying your surroundings, unless it's ferrals.
Air Rifles are a very useful tool for pest control and nothing yet can replace them.

Andy Jones wrote:

forward thinker wrote: Pest control is not a valid argument as I have experience of this with grey squirrels and there are viable alternatives such as traps that allow the smaller reds through, but really I think this area is a desperate tactic to divert away from the fact that these things can kill people in the wrong hands. As with real guns, there is no need for them to be carried by the public in a civilised society.

You're so right. Isn't it odd how many of these people who have pest problems also are members of gun clubs and have multiple guns. Sheesh, no-one's buying the pathetic pest-control argument, you're all just people who enjoy shooting little animals. I don't blame you for not wanting to admit it, it's a bit sad and pathetic after all.

Quite odd how "forward thinker" hasn't replied as to what he/she does with the squirrels that are caught in the traps.

Druid wrote
Are you a Veggie? If not it may come as a surprise that meat doesn't grow in those little plastic trays.

Yes I am a "veggie" and I am fully aware of where meat comes from. It is because of where meat comes from and the inhumane way animals are treated that I choose not to eat it. I wouldn't have considered eating squirrel and the like if I was a meat eater so i still don't understand the need to kill them. Why exactly are they pests, or are they just target practice?

Sunny wrote:
Druid wrote Are you a Veggie? If not it may come as a surprise that meat doesn't grow in those little plastic trays. Yes I am a "veggie" and I am fully aware of where meat comes from. It is because of where meat comes from and the inhumane way animals are treated that I choose not to eat it. I wouldn't have considered eating squirrel and the like if I was a meat eater so i still don't understand the need to kill them. Why exactly are they pests, or are they just target practice?

The Greys are pests for two main reasons. They have almost eradicated our native British Reds by infecting them with Squirelpox, which does not affect them but kills the Reds. They are also able to eat unripe nuts that the Reds can't and because of this the Reds food source is severely depleted and they starve.
The other reason is the massive damage they cause to tree bark, which in turn kills the trees.
Because of these two reasons the Government has declared them a pest species.
The "target practice" just doesn't come into it. There are many clubs that you can shoot targets at without using a living animal. If you are going to shoot animals the first requirement after safety is a humane kill.
I can understand peoples dislike for pest control but it is firstly a legal requirement and secondly if left the pest species would run out of control and cost far more than it already does.

a gun is just a lump of metal till its loaded & fired send the sods to afghanistan - the taiban fire back!

FFS

What school are you lot in it must be a primary school.

The bottom line is we all know that these little b@st@rds will not be charged with attemped murder and even IF they get sent to disneyland OPPS I meant the courts they will be given a £60 fine and told not to do that again.

Remember we are in Britain the courts and the law doesn`t work in this sh+thole country..

LET ME JUST HANG THE B@ST@RDS

how do these people get bail? surely they are a danger to the public?

The Greys are pests for two main reasons. They have almost eradicated our native British Reds by infecting them with Squirelpox, which does not affect them but kills the Reds. They are also able to eat unripe nuts that the Reds can't and because of this the Reds food source is severely depleted and they starve.

Isn't this called evolution? Is there any reason we ought to prefer red squirrels over grey ones? Or is it just the colour? Surely can't be colour or you wouldn't get Jays on the list.

The other reason is the massive damage they cause to tree bark, which in turn kills the trees.

Is this damage that only the grey variety causes?

The "target practice" just doesn't come into it.

Nah, it's just sadistic fun. I wonder what sort of thing happens to a young child so that they grow up getting their kicks out of this sort of thing. Isn't torturing small animals one of the three signs?

If you are going to shoot animals the first requirement after safety is a humane kill.

If a humane kill is any kind of priority requirement, then amateurs shooting them would be ruled out straight away.

I can understand peoples dislike for pest control but it is firstly a legal requirement

For who? Me? Who enforces this law? You've said this before but failed to provide any link or explanation. I can't imagine my gran is required by law to shoot any grey squirrels she sees in her garden.

and secondly if left the pest species would run out of control and cost far more than it already does.

Best use more efficient methods then.

Andy, you really are stupid.
The Greys are not a U.K indigenous species but one imported from America. The Government has decided they are a pest species and therefore can be culled. I'm sorry they didn't consult yourself but probably thought that they would only get nonsense from you.
The damage they cause can be confirmed with the Forrestry Commision if you care to do so. The Reds also cause damage but as they are so few in number it's not significant. Should the Reds become more populous then they would also be culled once the damage became unacceptable.
As already said, target practice does not come into it. If you don't wish to believe that it's your perogative. As far as humane killing goes there is no difference between an amateur and a professional, the criteria is expertise or are you too thick to understand that. As for landowners
I already explained but am unsure which bit of "Farmers/Estate owners" you fail to understand. If your Granny has a farm she is required by law to control the pests. There are other means of pest control but that usually means gassing (rabbits) or poison (Animals and birds). As poison is non-selective it will also kill anything else that eats it. That means songbirds, dogs, cats and other protected species. Even a moron like you should be able to understand that.

Andy, you really are stupid.Druid, it's interesting that you can't put an argument across without resorting to ad hominem. Hardly the behaviour of one confident in the strength of his arguments. Please Druid, if you wish for yourself and your points to be taken seriously, refrain from this playground nonsense.


The Greys are not a U.K indigenous species but one imported from AmericaI'm quite aware of this. Hell, *we* are not originally from these lands either. Does that make any difference to whether they're a pest or not? No. It's all about their behaviour.


The Government has decided they are a pest species and therefore can be culled.Can be? Or need to be? Seems you're mixing up the two to suit your bloodthirsty desires. And how do you know how many to kill? Or do you just assume culled means wipe out? Are you aware of how many there are in your area and what the ideal number is? Or do you just shoot one whenever you get the urge?


The damage they cause can be confirmed with the Forrestry Commision if you care to do so. The Reds also cause damage but as they are so few in number it's not significant. Should the Reds become more populous then they would also be culled once the damage became unacceptable.Forests! F-O-R-E-S-T-S. Not people's back gardens in the middle of suburbia! Listen to yourself, you're even confirming that it's not a real problem that the general public have to arm themselves up (legal requirement too, according to you), and deal with.


As already said, target practice does not come into it. If you don't wish to believe that it's your perogative.You've offered absolutely *nothing* convincing in return. As I've already pointed out, it seems just a bit of a coincidence that everyone in this thread that seems to have a pest infestation and needs to cull squirrels also is into shooting guns in general. Hmm...


As far as humane killing goes there is no difference between an amateur and a professional, the criteria is expertiseExpertise *is* the difference! Which is why an amateur shooting a squirrel in the hind quarters with no idea of whether he even hit it or not and with no real means or idea of how to track and complete the job is *not* humane. Hey, but it's still good fun, right?


or are you too thick to understand thatMore ad hominem, I see.


As for landowners I already explained but am unsure which bit of "Farmers/Estate owners" you fail to understand. If your Granny has a farm she is required by law to control the pests.Ah, so it's not "a legal requirement for landowners", like you said then. It has to be a larger amount of land. Once again, your arguments are not justifying them being available in the high street where people from suburbia and housing estates can buy them (presumably to control the pests in their garden box).


There are other means of pest control but that usually means gassing (rabbits) or poison (Animals and birds). As poison is non-selective it will also kill anything else that eats it. That means songbirds, dogs, cats and other protected species.Does it also include young children, pregnant women and the 31-year-old woman shot in the neck in this article? No.


Even a moron like you should be able to understand that.More ad hominem. Are you really struggling with your POV so much? I guess I shouldn't be surprised if someone who gets their kicks from shooting little animals would be quick to get aggressive.

Andy, you really are stupid.

Druid, it's interesting that you can't put an argument across without resorting to ad hominem. Hardly the behaviour of one confident in the strength of his arguments. Please Druid, if you wish for yourself and your points to be taken seriously, refrain from this playground nonsense.

The Greys are not a U.K indigenous species but one imported from America

I'm quite aware of this. Hell, *we* are not originally from these lands either. Does that make any difference to whether they're a pest or not? No. It's all about their behaviour.

The Government has decided they are a pest species and therefore can be culled.

Can be? Or need to be? Seems you're mixing up the two to suit your bloodthirsty desires. And how do you know how many to kill? Or do you just assume culled means wipe out? Are you aware of how many there are in your area and what the ideal number is? Or do you just shoot one whenever you get the urge?

The damage they cause can be confirmed with the Forrestry Commision if you care to do so. The Reds also cause damage but as they are so few in number it's not significant. Should the Reds become more populous then they would also be culled once the damage became unacceptable.

Forests! F-O-R-E-S-T-S. Not people's back gardens in the middle of suburbia! Listen to yourself, you're even confirming that it's not a real problem that the general public have to arm themselves up (legal requirement too, according to you), and deal with.

As already said, target practice does not come into it. If you don't wish to believe that it's your perogative.

You've offered absolutely *nothing* convincing in return. As I've already pointed out, it seems just a bit of a coincidence that everyone in this thread that seems to have a pest infestation and needs to cull squirrels also is into shooting guns in general. Hmm...

As far as humane killing goes there is no difference between an amateur and a professional, the criteria is expertise

Expertise *is* the difference! Which is why an amateur shooting a squirrel in the hind quarters with no idea of whether he even hit it or not and with no real means or idea of how to track and complete the job is *not* humane. Hey, but it's still good fun, right?

or are you too thick to understand that

More ad hominem, I see.

As for landowners I already explained but am unsure which bit of "Farmers/Estate owners" you fail to understand. If your Granny has a farm she is required by law to control the pests.

Ah, so it's not "a legal requirement for landowners", like you said then. It has to be a larger amount of land. Once again, your arguments are not justifying them being available in the high street where people from suburbia and housing estates can buy them (presumably to control the pests in their garden box).

There are other means of pest control but that usually means gassing (rabbits) or poison (Animals and birds). As poison is non-selective it will also kill anything else that eats it. That means songbirds, dogs, cats and other protected species.

Does it also include young children, pregnant women and the 31-year-old woman shot in the neck in this article? No.

Even a moron like you should be able to understand that.

More ad hominem. Are you really struggling with your POV so much? I guess I shouldn't be surprised if someone who gets their kicks from shooting little animals would be quick to get aggressive.

Andy. Theres none so blind as them that won't see. You will never be convinced in any way whatsoever so theres no point in continuing. You keep bleating about "banning airguns" and I'll keep pushing my sport. You fail to understand any part of pest control as it applies to Landowners and no explanation I give will be accepted by you. Keep feeding your squirrels because it might just save a few young songbirds being eaten, yes alive. It may also save a few songbirds eggs. But hey, we don't care about any of that do we. Yes it is a legal requirement for a Landowner to control pests, a basic search on Google will confirm.

You also have no need to post twice as one post from you isn't worth the bandwidth.

I don't see the point in banning them altogether. Hand guns that fire real bullets are not on general sale, people still get shot with them. Ban them and you create a black market but why go to the black market for a air gun when you can get the real thing? There needs to be a real deterrent.

Armed police swoop after man is shot at house

Don't think this is a legal gun do you?

Lollipop wrote:
I don't see the point in banning them altogether. Hand guns that fire real bullets are not on general sale, people still get shot with them. Ban them and you create a black market but why go to the black market for a air gun when you can get the real thing? There needs to be a real deterrent.

You sure? You still get a high percentage of violent crime being without guns (note the bloke with the big ears who robbed the diamond store with a hammer), so they're not that easy to get hold of. Any one of us could get hold of an airgun today or tomorrow, how many of you believe you could get hold of a functioning pistol? Besides, the problem is not with people using airguns for robberies and violent crime, it's with kids using them to shoot strangers and pets from across the road, much like in this story. Do you really think that if airguns were banned then the people in this story would have bothered to source an airgun or even a real gun on a black market somewhere and shoot people with that? I highly doubt it. They only mess with them because they're easily available.

Lollipop wrote:

Armed police swoop after man is shot at house

Don't think this is a legal gun do you?

Jumping on the same bizarre train of thought as Druid I see. Regardless of the facts of that story, it doesn't change a jot about the problem of airguns. It speaks volumes that the basis of the pro-airgun argument is to ignore it altogether and point the finger at other crimes...

Andy. Theres none so blind as them that won't see.

Or perhaps the girl in this story: http://tinyurl.com/3
aboar, blinded in one eye after being hit by an airgun from a random attacker she never even saw.

You will never be convinced in any way whatsoever so theres no point in continuing.

You never come up with anything convincing. Your pest control arguments are full of holes (as is your back fence I'd expect), and has never been anything more than a weak attempt to justify how you simply enjoy shooting things.

You keep bleating about "banning airguns"

Each time there's an incident, which sadly seems to be getting more and more common.

and I'll keep pushing my sport.

Exactly. It's your 'sport', and your interest in it has got nothing to do with pest control - yet that seems to be the only defence you can come up with. Like I said, kinda weird how many people who are into shooting guns also seem to have a small animal pest problem...

You fail to understand any part of pest control as it applies to Landowners and no explanation I give will be accepted by you.

Simply because you're attempting to use it to justify the sale of airguns to members of the public on the high street. We both know that the majority of airguns sold on the high street are *not* intended for use in this way.

What percentage of people buying airguns are thinking "hi, yeah, I hear there's a bit of a problem with gray squirrels and other problem pests and I'd just like to do my bit for the country. I've got a 8ft garden and there's an OUT OF CONTROL squirrel that keeps stealing nuts from my bird table, ALMOST CERTAINLY causing legions of DEAD BIRDS, that my cat seems to keep finding and bringing home"

Keep feeding your squirrels because it might just save a few young songbirds being eaten, yes alive.

What do you think the squirrels are before you shoot them? I'm reasonably confident that *many* more garden birds are killed by pet cats each year than by squirrels, so what are you doing about that specific problem? Do you shoot pet cats too?

It may also save a few songbirds eggs. But hey, we don't care about any of that do we.

Quite frankly, I don't believe for a second that you do, no. When was the last time you went out into the forest and performed a bit of a culling in the name of saving songbirds? Does this mean you only shoot for about one month very year then? I very much doubt it.

Yes it is a legal requirement for a Landowner to control pests, a basic search on Google will confirm.

You always seem unable to provide URLs don't you. Hmm.. <rubs chin>. Why don't you find this law and then post a URL, if the search is so simple. Whilst I was looking, I found this page:

http://www.hastings.
gov.uk/pests/squirre
ls.aspx

which is all about gray squirrel problems, how to spot them, control them and to address them. There's all sorts of recommended techniques, cage trapping, spring trapping, proofing, poison baiting. Oh, but nothing about going Rambo and trying to shoot them with airguns.

You also have no need to post twice

Quoting seemed to go awry in the first one, you surely noticed?

as one post from you isn't worth the bandwidth.

You still on dial-up or something?!

I'm afraid Andy that you really are too stupid to understand. The pest control requirement is there for anyone to verify. I would be good if you got a squirrel in your loft, I'd love to know how you would deal with it.You also have no idea whatsoever as to the use of the vast majority of airguns, what's your source for your claim. You also obviously have no idea's of the laws that affect the use of airguns so I would advise you not to shoot in your garden until you do.
You also need to go back and read the information you found, which includes despatching the caught squirrels by shooting, sharp blow to the head (which means avoiding their teeth when you get hold of them). It does also say that trapped squirrels must not be released into the wild, as I said earlier. So your url does seem to justify a lot of what I said. Before you go off on one and say that airguns are not gun enough to use, think about a suggestion as to what is. As for bandwidth, what's that got to do with the poor value of your posts.

Andy Jones wrote:

Lollipop wrote: I don't see the point in banning them altogether. Hand guns that fire real bullets are not on general sale, people still get shot with them. Ban them and you create a black market but why go to the black market for a air gun when you can get the real thing? There needs to be a real deterrent.

You sure? You still get a high percentage of violent crime being without guns (note the bloke with the big ears who robbed the diamond store with a hammer), so they're not that easy to get hold of. Any one of us could get hold of an airgun today or tomorrow, how many of you believe you could get hold of a functioning pistol? Besides, the problem is not with people using airguns for robberies and violent crime, it's with kids using them to shoot strangers and pets from across the road, much like in this story. Do you really think that if airguns were banned then the people in this story would have bothered to source an airgun or even a real gun on a black market somewhere and shoot people with that? I highly doubt it. They only mess with them because they're easily available.

Ok then so by outlawing them it would solve the problem?

Lets outlaw anything that can be used as a weapon then because if they can't use air rifles they will find something else.

The lil gets that do things like this need a proper deterrent.

I don't understand you line of thought I'm affraid.

By banning them you are ignoring the problem hoping it will go away.

Andy Jones wrote:

Lollipop wrote:

Armed police swoop after man is shot at house

Don't think this is a legal gun do you?

Jumping on the same bizarre train of thought as Druid I see. Regardless of the facts of that story, it doesn't change a jot about the problem of airguns. It speaks volumes that the basis of the pro-airgun argument is to ignore it altogether and point the finger at other crimes...

I have my own opinions thank you.

I am not pro or against Guns. I have never had one nor do I ever want one. I just don't believe that by banning them it solves the problem.

i use airguns, and other weapons, longbow, rifle etc. for two reasons; to control many of the above-mentioned vermin, plus foxes, that devastate my own stock and the wildlife around me, and because i like it. If you don't, then that is your choice, but remember, in a democracy we all have a choice, and I have made mine.

Ok then so by outlawing them it would solve the problem?

In time yes, since people wouldn't have such easy access to them. You want to deny that? Explain why/how.

Lets outlaw anything that can be used as a weapon then because if they can't use air rifles they will find something else.

No they wouldn't. In crimes by adult criminals where a weapon is used as a deterrent (an armed robbery), then guns will always be sought. However, we're talking about kids shooting strangers with airguns for a laugh - a *whole* different ball game. If they didn't have easy access to the guns, they're unlikely to try and source them on the black market, they'll just go off and do something else instead. Perhaps throow stones at cars, or perhaps just sit in and play XBox.

The lil gets that do things like this need a proper deterrent.

No deterrent is needed if there's no access to them in the first place. Should we sell hand grenades on the high street but with a stiff penalty for using them? D'ya think that would mean no hand-grenade related incidents?!

I don't understand you line of thought I'm affraid.

Ban them, then they won't have any guns to shoot in the first place. The line of thought is very very straight forward.

By banning them you are ignoring the problem hoping it will go away.

LOL! It's exactly the opposite. It's taking positive action to provide *preventative* measures. Ban the guns and the problem *will* go away.

berushka wrote:
i use airguns, and other weapons, longbow, rifle etc. for two reasons; to control many of the above-mentioned vermin, plus foxes, that devastate my own stock and the wildlife around me, and because i like it. If you don't, then that is your choice, but remember, in a democracy we all have a choice, and I have made mine.

No, you're thinking of anarchy where we all follow our own choice. Democracy is when we all follow the most popular choice. Now then, which one are you advocating?

I am not pro or against Guns.

Well don't sit on the fence too long, you'll probably get shot off by some gun-touting 'pest controller'...

I just don't believe that by banning them it solves the problem.

I can't see any way in which it would fail. No airguns = no airgun incidents.

Druid said: I'm afraid Andy that you really are too stupid to understand.

Druid, I notice that you're incapable of making a post without ad hominem, which is childish, very telling of your aggressive personality and also very telling of how much you're struggling to justify your own arguments. Give it a rest, grow up some and have an argument like an adult if you want your opinion to be taken seriously. The second thing I notice is that you always fail to answer any questions I pose. This also, is *very* telling. You never provide URL references for the tales, figures and laws that you come up with. Your arguments are pathetic thinly veiled justifications for you and your gun club buddies to continue shooting little animals and getting your kicks from it.

If you want "URL" evidence then you wait a long time. I make my statements and should you wish to disprove then you provide the "URL's"
You obviously don't understand what gun clubs are about and there are none that I know of that allow shooting of living creatures on their "Grounds". To shoot vermin you have to have the permission of the Landowner, which is totally seperate from any gun club.
You complain about my use of ad hominem then go on to use it yourself, very convincing eh! You also appear to want to be very condescending as if you are the font of all wisdom. Look inward before criticising others.
As for my arguements being "pathetic thinly veiled justification" you would know better, if you had done even a litle basic research.
You come accross as a sad pathetically biased individual who has little realisation of the true world around him.

Druid wrote:
If you want "URL" evidence then you wait a long time. I make my statements and should you wish to disprove then you provide the "URL's" You obviously don't understand what gun clubs are about and there are none that I know of that allow shooting of living creatures on their "Grounds". To shoot vermin you have to have the permission of the Landowner, which is totally seperate from any gun club. You complain about my use of ad hominem then go on to use it yourself, very convincing eh! You also appear to want to be very condescending as if you are the font of all wisdom. Look inward before criticising others. As for my arguements being "pathetic thinly veiled justification" you would know better, if you had done even a litle basic research. You come accross as a sad pathetically biased individual who has little realisation of the true world around him.

Over to you Andy can't wait for the next thrilling installment, beats watching TV any night I hope it runs and runs, incidentally i am on the fence on this one.

Druid wrote:
If you want "URL" evidence then you wait a long time. I make my statements and should you wish to disprove then you provide the "URL's" You obviously don't understand what gun clubs are about and there are none that I know of that allow shooting of living creatures on their "Grounds". To shoot vermin you have to have the permission of the Landowner, which is totally seperate from any gun club. You complain about my use of ad hominem then go on to use it yourself, very convincing eh! You also appear to want to be very condescending as if you are the font of all wisdom. Look inward before criticising others. As for my arguements being "pathetic thinly veiled justification" you would know better, if you had done even a litle basic research. You come accross as a sad pathetically biased individual who has little realisation of the true world around him.

Over to you Andy can't wait for the next thrilling installment, beats watching TV any night I hope it runs and runs, incidentally i am on the fence on this one.

we're talking about kids shooting strangers with airguns for a laugh - a *whole* different ball game.

They are hardly kids they were all over voting age.

Perhaps throow stones at cars, or perhaps just sit in and play XBox.

They shuld really have jobs or be in college, do not like the thought of going to work so some lil scrote can sit a play xbox all day and then cost me more money or even my life by throwing stones at my car!

If banning stuff is going to stop crime then why wasn't it done years agao and why am I still paying tax's to keep scum in prison?

There are plenty of people in prison for doing things that have been outlawed hence the reason they are in prison.

Druid wrote:

Andy Jones wrote:

forward thinker wrote: Pest control is not a valid argument as I have experience of this with grey squirrels and there are viable alternatives such as traps that allow the smaller reds through, but really I think this area is a desperate tactic to divert away from the fact that these things can kill people in the wrong hands. As with real guns, there is no need for them to be carried by the public in a civilised society.

You\'re so right. Isn\'t it odd how many of these people who have pest problems also are members of gun clubs and have multiple guns. Sheesh, no-one\'s buying the pathetic pest-control argument, you\'re all just people who enjoy shooting little animals. I don\'t blame you for not wanting to admit it, it\'s a bit sad and pathetic after all.

Quite odd how \"forward thinker\" hasn\'t replied as to what he/she does with the squirrels that are caught in the traps.

I've got a life matey. I don't spend every minute of the day on here looking to argue with people. Hope you don't fly into some sort of rage and go on an airgun rampage. If I really wound you up, and I mean REALLY, in your face being insulting and derogatory to you in public, how much would it take for you to be tempted to shoot me with your gun if you had it with you?

I'm sorry I've fallen for your bait on this subject and it has descended to this level. The fact is that any moron can get one and use it for malicious purposes. They should be categorised as any other fire arm.

BTW, I didn't trap them personally. The traps I referred to have been on TV and are actually condoned by Bill Oddie no less.