Lets tell Ruth Kelly how much we detest being part of this EU dream.

Good luck to all concerned.Lets let Kelly know that WE AINT HAPPY with the meddling,corrupt,god
-forsaken,thieving(& sometimes un-elected)eu gravy-train,plus hangers-on(of course)

I have always voted Labour but if we do not have a referendum then ii will never vote Labour again at any election.

I support any move which brings forward the likelyhood of a referendum on membership of the EU.
However, business leaders are more interested in boosting their own bank accounts than any higher ideal and the fact that they have put up with the EU through the fat years makes me highly suspicious of their motives now.

But then again, It's not how we get there but just that we get there.

Voter Heaton.

All that will happen is they will keep asking the question until the answer is yes.

In any case we have the treaty no we are already signed up to it.

You already helped by voting them in.

Voter wrote:
I have always voted Labour but if we do not have a referendum then ii will never vote Labour again at any election.

referendum on the Constitution you mean - that was promised an never happened???


Or a referendum on the Treaty that has never been promised by the government???

Sun Tzu wrote:
I support any move which brings forward the likelyhood of a referendum on membership of the EU. However, business leaders are more interested in boosting their own bank accounts than any higher ideal and the fact that they have put up with the EU through the fat years makes me highly suspicious of their motives now. But then again, It's not how we get there but just that we get there.

Let's put it this way - its not often I agree with a very ancient Chinese leader BUT on this occassion Sun is spot on - businessnes do not give a **** about this so-called election as its worthless and will be diverting monies away from the companies profits and shareholders.

This mock-election will, just like the referendum for the change in constitution (and not the treaty) will never happen!!!

Treaty or constitution, it matters not whatever you want to call it.
In or out is the question and as recession takes hold we won't be able to afford the outragous extravagance which is known as EU.

Sun Tzu wrote:
Treaty or constitution, it matters not whatever you want to call it. In or out is the question and as recession takes hold we won't be able to afford the outragous extravagance which is known as EU.

But we will be able to receive aid from the EU (especially money taken from the other EU countries!!!!)


Now that will make a change, wont it???

amosc99 wrote:

Sun Tzu wrote: Treaty or constitution, it matters not whatever you want to call it. In or out is the question and as recession takes hold we won't be able to afford the outragous extravagance which is known as EU.

But we will be able to receive aid from the EU (especially money taken from the other EU countries!!!!) Now that will make a change, wont it???

If only it was as simple as that!!!!


Take a look at the EU, then take a look at our ParliamentS (and I do mean PLURAL) and then look at the local level and then tell me what the hell is the difference between them all.

All as obstinate as each other, all as cloak & dagger as each other, all hiding something and all trying to be as clear as water (I'm not quite fully EU but at least I am positive about it - I am at least wanting to try something that is different rather than become old and boring and play safe all the time - think of the Yankees when they all joined together, and then Australia and what about the peoples of Italy, Spain and France when they went through the same thing - yes its frightening but at the end of the day one either makes a successof it and prospers or ones shyes away and doesn't prosper - I know which category I would rather be in).. I am not shying away, I want it to work but for it to be a success there will always be bad with the good - look at our system a complete success (but tired and boring) but is it safe? Local system - again tired and boring but is it safe from corruption et al???

NO system is imfallable - but if one doesn't try to make it succeed then that one is a failure in my eyes - even anyone playing safe is a failure because they do not have the conviction or the guts to try anything new!

amosc99 wrote:

Sun Tzu wrote:
Treaty or constitution, it matters not whatever you want to call it. In or out is the question and as recession takes hold we won't be able to afford the outragous extravagance which is known as EU.

But we will be able to receive aid from the EU (especially money taken from the other EU countries!!!!)


Now that will make a change, wont it???

No, because it won't happen. The recession will affect the richer European countries but not enough for us to be in a position where we become a net benificiary.
Remaining in the EU will only serve to make the recession harder for British people.

Even if we did find ourselves in a position to benefit from the EU. Our European buddies would no doubt find a way to bend the rules to screw us.

complete success

forgot to add here, between coma's...

Many would say a success as they only see the facade but other would say different in one delves deeper into what our democracy is all about!!!

Sun Tzu wrote:

amosc99 wrote:

Sun Tzu wrote: Treaty or constitution, it matters not whatever you want to call it. In or out is the question and as recession takes hold we won't be able to afford the outragous extravagance which is known as EU.

But we will be able to receive aid from the EU (especially money taken from the other EU countries!!!!) Now that will make a change, wont it???

No, because it won't happen. The recession will affect the richer European countries but not enough for us to be in a position where we become a net benificiary. Remaining in the EU will only serve to make the recession harder for British people. Even if we did find ourselves in a position to benefit from the EU. Our European buddies would no doubt find a way to bend the rules to screw us.

right on the one hand in other threads you are saying that Brown and others in the UK have created this recession to join the Euro, whilst in this thread you are saying that it will affect many other countries - firstly MAKE YOUR MIND UP!!!


Secondly, even if that was the case the EU has a fund big enough to cover situations to which we could/about to enter.

Thirdly the amount we pay the EU would actually decrease because of it

IT IS A SLIDING SCALE and not a permamnent payment each month - its like if the interest rates go up or down on your mortgage - do you still pay the same amount of money on it???


If we did enter a recession our GDP actually decreases - and that does have a factor over the amount we pay - it also includes the amount of people in work, the average wage of the country and most importantly the amount of people who are on benefits in the country.

Take all those into consideration and IF we are entering a recession then the amount we pay to the EU WILL decrease but the amount of aid coming from the EU will actually increase.

Plus with every recession the afteremath is almost virtually far better than before the recession. Apart from the Stock Market Crash of 1921 (even including that) have stock markets ever been negative over a long period. Stocks fall but in the long term they are continually rising! Again the EU, like everything else in this world the EU does base alot of what it does on stocks and shares!!!!

Even if we did find ourselves in a position to benefit from the EU. Our European buddies would no doubt find a way to bend the rules to screw us.

Even if they tried the EU laws on this are VERY VERY tight and not open to abuse - as both Germany and France keep finding out when they are taken to court and fined heavily!!!!!!

Not one country prospers in the EU but all countries do and all countries pay their way in the EU. They are there, as the very basis of the common market, to help each other. Bring poor countries up to "our" standards and help with each economy!!

This is the reason the common market and the present EU exist - on that simple premise!

amosc99 wrote:

amosc99 wrote:

Sun Tzu wrote: Treaty or constitution, it matters not whatever you want to call it. In or out is the question and as recession takes hold we won't be able to afford the outragous extravagance which is known as EU.

But we will be able to receive aid from the EU (especially money taken from the other EU countries!!!!) Now that will make a change, wont it???

If only it was as simple as that!!!!


Take a look at the EU, then take a look at our ParliamentS (and I do mean PLURAL) and then look at the local level and then tell me what the hell is the difference between them all.

All as obstinate as each other, all as cloak & dagger as each other, all hiding something and all trying to be as clear as water (I'm not quite fully EU but at least I am positive about it - I am at least wanting to try something that is different rather than become old and boring and play safe all the time - think of the Yankees when they all joined together, and then Australia and what about the peoples of Italy, Spain and France when they went through the same thing - yes its frightening but at the end of the day one either makes a successof it and prospers or ones shyes away and doesn't prosper - I know which category I would rather be in).. I am not shying away, I want it to work but for it to be a success there will always be bad with the good - look at our system a complete success (but tired and boring) but is it safe? Local system - again tired and boring but is it safe from corruption et al???

NO system is imfallable - but if one doesn't try to make it succeed then that one is a failure in my eyes - even anyone playing safe is a failure because they do not have the conviction or the guts to try anything new!

As a democracy we didn't vote for the Eurocrats to legislate on our behalf. Indeed the vast majority of our voters have never even been allowed to have a vote on whether or not they even want to be part of the EU.

The examples of unification you give come from a very different time in history. The world is a very different place now and we face some very uncertain times ahead.
You seem to be under the impression that things always conform to what has gone before. It's never been that way.
We are not talking about a little gamble with a few years here. We are talking about taking a chance on the life chances of future generations.

Amos wrote
right on the one hand in other threads you are saying that Brown and others in the UK have created this recession to join the Euro, whilst in this thread you are saying that it will affect many other countries - firstly MAKE YOUR MIND UP!!!

Look Amos, you need to understand that just because you keep repeating a lie it doesn't become the truth.
Nowhere have I said what you are accusing me of.
I do place some of the blame for the forthcoming recession at Gordon Browns door but I don't think it's some kind of ploy to keep us in the EU.

Sun Tzu wrote:

amosc99 wrote:

amosc99 wrote:

Sun Tzu wrote: Treaty or constitution, it matters not whatever you want to call it. In or out is the question and as recession takes hold we won't be able to afford the outragous extravagance which is known as EU.

But we will be able to receive aid from the EU (especially money taken from the other EU countries!!!!) Now that will make a change, wont it???

If only it was as simple as that!!!! Take a look at the EU, then take a look at our ParliamentS (and I do mean PLURAL) and then look at the local level and then tell me what the hell is the difference between them all. All as obstinate as each other, all as cloak & dagger as each other, all hiding something and all trying to be as clear as water (I'm not quite fully EU but at least I am positive about it - I am at least wanting to try something that is different rather than become old and boring and play safe all the time - think of the Yankees when they all joined together, and then Australia and what about the peoples of Italy, Spain and France when they went through the same thing - yes its frightening but at the end of the day one either makes a successof it and prospers or ones shyes away and doesn't prosper - I know which category I would rather be in).. I am not shying away, I want it to work but for it to be a success there will always be bad with the good - look at our system a complete success (but tired and boring) but is it safe? Local system - again tired and boring but is it safe from corruption et al??? NO system is imfallable - but if one doesn't try to make it succeed then that one is a failure in my eyes - even anyone playing safe is a failure because they do not have the conviction or the guts to try anything new!

As a democracy we didn't vote for the Eurocrats to legislate on our behalf. Indeed the vast majority of our voters have never even been allowed to have a vote on whether or not they even want to be part of the EU. The examples of unification you give come from a very different time in history. The world is a very different place now and we face some very uncertain times ahead. You seem to be under the impression that things always conform to what has gone before. It's never been that way. We are not talking about a little gamble with a few years here. We are talking about taking a chance on the life chances of future generations.

right you talk from a Britissh point of view - but what about the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish and all the others within the old Empire who did not choose to be part of an ENGLISH empire!!!

Where is there difference?

There is no difference.

Like the EU with us we beat them into submission.

amosc99 wrote:

Sun Tzu wrote:

amosc99 wrote:

amosc99 wrote:

Sun Tzu wrote: Treaty or constitution, it matters not whatever you want to call it. In or out is the question and as recession takes hold we won't be able to afford the outragous extravagance which is known as EU.

But we will be able to receive aid from the EU (especially money taken from the other EU countries!!!!) Now that will make a change, wont it???

If only it was as simple as that!!!! Take a look at the EU, then take a look at our ParliamentS (and I do mean PLURAL) and then look at the local level and then tell me what the hell is the difference between them all. All as obstinate as each other, all as cloak & dagger as each other, all hiding something and all trying to be as clear as water (I'm not quite fully EU but at least I am positive about it - I am at least wanting to try something that is different rather than become old and boring and play safe all the time - think of the Yankees when they all joined together, and then Australia and what about the peoples of Italy, Spain and France when they went through the same thing - yes its frightening but at the end of the day one either makes a successof it and prospers or ones shyes away and doesn't prosper - I know which category I would rather be in).. I am not shying away, I want it to work but for it to be a success there will always be bad with the good - look at our system a complete success (but tired and boring) but is it safe? Local system - again tired and boring but is it safe from corruption et al??? NO system is imfallable - but if one doesn't try to make it succeed then that one is a failure in my eyes - even anyone playing safe is a failure because they do not have the conviction or the guts to try anything new!

As a democracy we didn't vote for the Eurocrats to legislate on our behalf. Indeed the vast majority of our voters have never even been allowed to have a vote on whether or not they even want to be part of the EU. The examples of unification you give come from a very different time in history. The world is a very different place now and we face some very uncertain times ahead. You seem to be under the impression that things always conform to what has gone before. It's never been that way. We are not talking about a little gamble with a few years here. We are talking about taking a chance on the life chances of future generations.

right you talk from a Britissh point of view - but what about the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish and all the others within the old Empire who did not choose to be part of an ENGLISH empire!!!

Where is there difference?

If it were up to me I would gladly give the Scots, Welsh and Irish a vote on independence.
After all, we the English have carried these freeloaders for far too long. It's about time they pulled their weight or took a hike.

Rocky wrote:
There is no difference. Like the EU with us we beat them into submission.

what when it was a scotsman that came to the thrown and brought about the United Kingdom - so not the English t blame but the Scots - more precisely James I.

Shows we all know our own history never mind trying to defend what is Scottish and denying what could be a truly amazing ideology. We live in the C21 and things are changing fast if just one small minority country doesn't change then that coun try has had it for the future. Sure it may not be the EU but we will be swallowed up if we do not change - if anything the EU is the better option at this moment in time!!!