NO man - be it player, manager or chairman - is bigger than any club.
But some are bigger than others and in Wanderers' case, Big Sam, was a most pertinent nickname.
In light of what he achieved in seven-and-a-half glorious years, Allardyce was always going to be a hard act to follow, whoever was charged with the task. All the major players in the drama knew it: Eddie Davies, the owner, and Phil Gartside, the chairman, knew it and so did Sammy Lee, the man they appointed.
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Gary Megson acknowledged the fact when he arrived on the scene and, even those Wanderers fans who had grown tired of the team's playing style and believed the time was right for a change, accepted that whoever followed Allardyce had a lot to live up to.
He was a popular choice when he was appointed in October 1999, having been a cult figure in his playing days at Burnden Park, but no one - not even Gartside who recruited him - would have dared dream that he would deliver such riches.
He might not have done it so successfully or for so long without the help of a shrewd business plan - early on loans and short-term contracts were the order of the day - which became a blueprint for so many clubs.
All of football marvelled at the way Wanderers initially gained a foothold and then established themselves in the top eight - and all on the tightest of budgets.
Allardyce was the man who made it happen - some say the only man who could make it happen. He totally transformed the club, on and off the field. He attracted players with world class reputations - N'Gotty, Djorkaeff, Okocha, Campo, Diouf, Hierro, Anelka - and helped put Wanderers on the global football map.
He belied his persona as an uncompromising central defender with his scientific approach and assembled a backroom staff that was the envy of most and the equal of any in the Premier League. And, along the way, he ruffled the feathers of the best of his rivals - Sir Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez included - as he guided Wanderers to the UEFA Cup twice in three seasons.
Yes, many will argue that his time was up and that, after failing to get the financial backing he wanted in January 2007 to push for a Champions League place, he lost his focus. Statistics support that view.
But that takes nothing away from the fact that Allardyce and Wanderers were so special for each other - the right man at the right club at the right time - that Jose Mourinho, even if he had wanted the job, would have done well to emulate his achievements.
It was inevitable that Wanderers would struggle without him - but not to the extent to which they have.
NO, says David Magilton
IT is almost 12 months since Big Sam turned his back on the club he loved and walked out of the manager's office at the Reebok for the last time.
The town was in shock. Fans were saddened and many had tears in their eyes at the news that the man who had transformed their club from a Championship side to a major Premiership force was turning his back on them.
Would their club go into freefall with relegation the inevitable conclusion?
Sadly, as the last traumatic 12 months have proved, that appears the likely outcome.
Could it have been avoided? - of course it could, but it required the same kind of bold decision-making that had brought Allardyce to Bolton in the first place.
Allardyce was a hard act to follow - that is not in dispute. Whoever took over the reins at the Reebok had very big shoes to fill.
Allardyce is a larger than life character who dragged up Wanderers by their bootlaces to the dizzy heights of the Premiership and the additional prize of Europe.
The only way Bolton would continue to perform in the top league, as they had done for the previous six seasons, was to replace Allardyce with someone of equal standing.
A big man was needed to replace Big Sam and some big players to revitalise the squad.
Let's not forget Wanderers had been in freefall since the turn of 2007. They were suffering from a nosebleed at Christmas when they scaled the Premiership heights to reach third place - incredibly they were above both Liverpool and Arsenal - but it quickly turned sour. When the club failed to back Allardyce with the funds he demanded in the January transfer window, the manger appeared to lose interest and his players followed suit.
Wanderers tumbled from third to seventh, but more importantly picked up just 17 points in 17 games.
Whether or not Allardyce had remained in the Reebok hot-seat, new faces and quality faces at that, were required to maintain the side as a Premiership force.
If the powers that be had delivered the combination of a big name manager with a Premiership pedigree and a sprinkling of quality new signings, then I am convinced Wanderers would not be in the situation they now find themselves.
It was only inevitable they would struggle once neither of those requirements were met.
Hence Wanderers now find themselves staring into the abyss.
Can't argue with either viewpoint - it's Gartside's fault. Thank you BEN for [bold]finally[/bold]speaking out on behalf of the fans and saying what we've been saying on here for weeks. The BEN and Gordon Sharrock in particular might have saved themselves a lot of grief and criticism if they'd said all this sooner. If you are perceived to be the Club's mouthpiece then it's inevitable that you'll be treated like it.
Can't argue with either viewpoint - it's Gartside's fault. Thank you BEN for finallyspeaking out on behalf of the fans and saying what we've been saying on here for weeks. The BEN and Gordon Sharrock in particular might have saved themselves a lot of grief and criticism if they'd said all this sooner. If you are perceived to be the Club's mouthpiece then it's inevitable that you'll be treated like it.
I agree Allardyce was a hard act to follow but also feel it was inevitable he would go.
After he was turned down for the England job his relationship with wanderers went on a downward slope and feel he had to try to prove himself with a bigger stage he always said he would leave if Man U or the like ever came calling but things havent turned out all rosie for him either.
I agree Allardyce was a hard act to follow but also feel it was inevitable he would go.
After he was turned down for the England job his relationship with wanderers went on a downward slope and feel he had to try to prove himself with a bigger stage he always said he would leave if Man U or the like ever came calling but things havent turned out all rosie for him either.
I dont't think Gartside knew that it would be a hard act to follow, or at least he was stupid enough to try and convince himself and others that Big Sam wasn't that important.
After all he tried to discredit his achievements and claimed Sammy Lee was an improvement.
Couple that with his startling claim that people in football understood the Megson appointment and you come to the conclusion that Gartside is something of a plank.
I dont't think Gartside knew that it would be a hard act to follow, or at least he was stupid enough to try and convince himself and others that Big Sam wasn't that important.
After all he tried to discredit his achievements and claimed Sammy Lee was an improvement.
Couple that with his startling claim that people in football understood the Megson appointment and you come to the conclusion that Gartside is something of a plank.
Anyone seen this news? Am I clutching at straws here or what? Could Birmingham be due a points deduction for cooking the books? Announcement due later today....
http://www.skysports
.com/story/0,19528,1
1661_3406078,00.html
Anyone seen this news? Am I clutching at straws here or what? Could Birmingham be due a points deduction for cooking the books? Announcement due later today....
[quote][bold]Brak[/bold] wrote:
What another pointelss article!! We have been discussing this for months already![/quote] What rattled you this morning?
Brak wrote:
What another pointelss article!! We have been discussing this for months already!
Posted by: Camposcomb, westhoughton on 9:50am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]charlie[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]Brak[/bold] wrote: What another pointelss article!! We have been discussing this for months already![/quote] What rattled you this morning?[/quote] Braks right..were stating the bleeding obvious on this subject.What is there to debate?
charlie wrote:
Brak wrote: What another pointelss article!! We have been discussing this for months already!
What rattled you this morning?
Braks right..were stating the bleeding obvious on this subject.What is there to debate?
Excellent: the best articles to be published in the BEN for a long time.
They accurately show that Gartside was an effective ally of BSA's for a long time, but from the moment Sam asked for more money, PG made a succession of abysmal decisions, particularly in the appointment of managers and in the number of ludicrous, ill-conceived comments to the media.
Sadly, his decision to appoint Megson has had a catastrophic impact. The man still doesn't know what his best eleven is, doesn't apply sound tactics or formations, has no idea about substitutions, can't motivate, has an abrasive style which upsets the players, has ineffective training methods, and has shamefully devalued cup competitions, one of which we strove so hard to get into in the first place.
The pair of them must go if we are to rise again, perhaps with Sam at the helm, but this time with the backing to buy some flair, pass-and-move players to complement the physical backbone. The technical staff lost must be replaced. You have to speculate to accumulate....but more wisely than Leeds!
Excellent: the best articles to be published in the BEN for a long time.
They accurately show that Gartside was an effective ally of BSA's for a long time, but from the moment Sam asked for more money, PG made a succession of abysmal decisions, particularly in the appointment of managers and in the number of ludicrous, ill-conceived comments to the media.
Sadly, his decision to appoint Megson has had a catastrophic impact. The man still doesn't know what his best eleven is, doesn't apply sound tactics or formations, has no idea about substitutions, can't motivate, has an abrasive style which upsets the players, has ineffective training methods, and has shamefully devalued cup competitions, one of which we strove so hard to get into in the first place.
The pair of them must go if we are to rise again, perhaps with Sam at the helm, but this time with the backing to buy some flair, pass-and-move players to complement the physical backbone. The technical staff lost must be replaced. You have to speculate to accumulate....but more wisely than Leeds!
Posted by: amosc99, Hoofdorp on 10:00am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Pieman[/bold] wrote:
He's left...get over it. [/quote] Heard the rumour that Paul Jewel is looking to take-over Wigan and move away from the JJB to a community park in Shevington?
Pieman wrote:
He's left...get over it.
Heard the rumour that Paul Jewel is looking to take-over Wigan and move away from the JJB to a community park in Shevington?
Posted by: charlie, wigan on 10:01am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]joanna[/bold] wrote:
Excellent: the best articles to be published in the BEN for a long time. They accurately show that Gartside was an effective ally of BSA's for a long time, but from the moment Sam asked for more money, PG made a succession of abysmal decisions, particularly in the appointment of managers and in the number of ludicrous, ill-conceived comments to the media. Sadly, his decision to appoint Megson has had a catastrophic impact. The man still doesn't know what his best eleven is, doesn't apply sound tactics or formations, has no idea about substitutions, can't motivate, has an abrasive style which upsets the players, has ineffective training methods, and has shamefully devalued cup competitions, one of which we strove so hard to get into in the first place. The pair of them must go if we are to rise again, perhaps with Sam at the helm, but this time with the backing to buy some flair, pass-and-move players to complement the physical backbone. The technical staff lost must be replaced. You have to speculate to accumulate....but more wisely than Leeds![/quote] We must start afresh - Forget Sam
If Megson would have brought out of this mess Sam would have been just another manager.
Flair players - Newcastle springs to mind
joanna wrote:
Excellent: the best articles to be published in the BEN for a long time. They accurately show that Gartside was an effective ally of BSA's for a long time, but from the moment Sam asked for more money, PG made a succession of abysmal decisions, particularly in the appointment of managers and in the number of ludicrous, ill-conceived comments to the media. Sadly, his decision to appoint Megson has had a catastrophic impact. The man still doesn't know what his best eleven is, doesn't apply sound tactics or formations, has no idea about substitutions, can't motivate, has an abrasive style which upsets the players, has ineffective training methods, and has shamefully devalued cup competitions, one of which we strove so hard to get into in the first place. The pair of them must go if we are to rise again, perhaps with Sam at the helm, but this time with the backing to buy some flair, pass-and-move players to complement the physical backbone. The technical staff lost must be replaced. You have to speculate to accumulate....but more wisely than Leeds!
We must start afresh - Forget Sam
If Megson would have brought out of this mess Sam would have been just another manager.
Flair players - Newcastle springs to mind
[quote][bold]Camposcomb[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]charlie[/bold] wrote: [quote][bold]Brak[/bold] wrote: What another pointelss article!! We have been discussing this for months already![/quote] What rattled you this morning?[/quote] Braks right..were stating the bleeding obvious on this subject.What is there to debate?[/quote] Funnily enough, I have been rattled by some youth in a punto thinking he can drive like an idiot and annoy as many people as possible. But enough about my grievances!
Is anyone wondering why this article has cropped up now?
Hey, maybe it's Sam testing the water....
:-)
Camposcomb wrote:
charlie wrote:
Brak wrote: What another pointelss article!! We have been discussing this for months already!
What rattled you this morning?
Braks right..were stating the bleeding obvious on this subject.What is there to debate?
Funnily enough, I have been rattled by some youth in a punto thinking he can drive like an idiot and annoy as many people as possible. But enough about my grievances!
Is anyone wondering why this article has cropped up now?
Hey, maybe it's Sam testing the water....
:-)
Posted by: Talie, Coventry on 10:02am Thu 10 Apr 08
I think it probably was inevitable but not to the extremes it has happened, I expected a slight dip but hoped the new manager would soon turn things round, trouble is the new manager/s were the wrong choice, with Megson we knew that every other football fan knew that, one person didn't and it stinks
I think it probably was inevitable but not to the extremes it has happened, I expected a slight dip but hoped the new manager would soon turn things round, trouble is the new manager/s were the wrong choice, with Megson we knew that every other football fan knew that, one person didn't and it stinks
It was always going to be difficult when Big Sam left but the real problem and cause of our downfall has been the club`s determination to do things on the cheap. Sammy Lee and Megson were both embarrassingly cheap options that show a lack of funds and more importantly a lack of ambition. Also, the constant lack of investment in players ( which is why Sam left ) left us with a squad not good enough for the Premiership. Every other Premiership club have two or three decent strikers. The signing of Rasiack highlighted our whole attitude and lack of ambition. Wigan showed how badly they wanted to survive in the Premiership when they paid a substantial amount of money to `buy` Steve Bruce as their new manager. True to form Bolton recruit a manager who had recently been out of work for months and whose current club`s supporters were glad to see the back of!!
I think it`s pretty obvious why Bolton are in this predicament and in fact the the decisions made by the board have been that bad that it almost looks like relegation was planned!!
It was always going to be difficult when Big Sam left but the real problem and cause of our downfall has been the club`s determination to do things on the cheap. Sammy Lee and Megson were both embarrassingly cheap options that show a lack of funds and more importantly a lack of ambition. Also, the constant lack of investment in players ( which is why Sam left ) left us with a squad not good enough for the Premiership. Every other Premiership club have two or three decent strikers. The signing of Rasiack highlighted our whole attitude and lack of ambition. Wigan showed how badly they wanted to survive in the Premiership when they paid a substantial amount of money to `buy` Steve Bruce as their new manager. True to form Bolton recruit a manager who had recently been out of work for months and whose current club`s supporters were glad to see the back of!!
I think it`s pretty obvious why Bolton are in this predicament and in fact the the decisions made by the board have been that bad that it almost looks like relegation was planned!!
In the poll I said NO! Why, well we could have easily not fre--fallen IF Gartside and the rest of the Board had not given the managerial job to LSL and had openly advertised the position. We were in the top 7, and been in the top 8 for 3 years previous. Decent set of players, decent ground, and a decent fan-base - a fantastic start for any manger (whether high profile or not) in wanting to come to the club.
All the mistakes that have occured after BSA left are purely down to misguided decision by Gartside and the rest of the Board!
In the poll I said NO! Why, well we could have easily not fre--fallen IF Gartside and the rest of the Board had not given the managerial job to LSL and had openly advertised the position. We were in the top 7, and been in the top 8 for 3 years previous. Decent set of players, decent ground, and a decent fan-base - a fantastic start for any manger (whether high profile or not) in wanting to come to the club.
All the mistakes that have occured after BSA left are purely down to misguided decision by Gartside and the rest of the Board!
Posted by: player #1, Half the world away on 10:18am Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]Daxter[/bold] wrote:
I dont't think Gartside knew that it would be a hard act to follow, or at least he was stupid enough to try and convince himself and others that Big Sam wasn't that important. After all he tried to discredit his achievements and claimed Sammy Lee was an improvement. Couple that with his startling claim that people in football understood the Megson appointment and you come to the conclusion that Gartside is something of a plank.[/quote] I think Gartside had probably convinced himself that it was his skill, shrewdness and brave decisions that lifted the wanderers to the heights. Not so much a case of the manager being bigger then the club, but maybe the chairman needed bringing down to earth.
Daxter wrote:
I dont't think Gartside knew that it would be a hard act to follow, or at least he was stupid enough to try and convince himself and others that Big Sam wasn't that important. After all he tried to discredit his achievements and claimed Sammy Lee was an improvement. Couple that with his startling claim that people in football understood the Megson appointment and you come to the conclusion that Gartside is something of a plank.
I think Gartside had probably convinced himself that it was his skill, shrewdness and brave decisions that lifted the wanderers to the heights. Not so much a case of the manager being bigger then the club, but maybe the chairman needed bringing down to earth.
Look ,we have a massive game on Saturday its no good feeling sorry for ourselves.
We are 1/6 at the bookies to go down .
But if we win and Everton win everyone will be saying we are not down yet.
We should be having this debate at the end of the season when we know which league we will be in next season.
I have said for ages
we are down ,but its not over yet.
A win is overdue .
So beat a toothless West Ham side and you never know!
Look ,we have a massive game on Saturday its no good feeling sorry for ourselves.
We are 1/6 at the bookies to go down .
But if we win and Everton win everyone will be saying we are not down yet.
We should be having this debate at the end of the season when we know which league we will be in next season.
I have said for ages
we are down ,but its not over yet.
A win is overdue .
So beat a toothless West Ham side and you never know!
[bold]NO, Says Deano[/bold] .
It was inevitable that the Wanderers would struggle when Gartside appointed half wit's with no experience of managing a top half prem side and then sold our best player without replacements being lined up.
If we had appointed a manager with some stature in the game, someone the players could look up to, we may have been able to push up in to the top half of the table once again and maybe even have a better chance of a run in the uefa cup.
I'm being very optimistic but i do believe the playing staff we have can get us out of the relegation place with the games we have left, as i think Birmingham have less chance of gaining points from their remaining games, so here's to the Whites and a win at the weekend, i'm gunning for an honourable one nil win !! lets get behind them !
WHITES ARMY !
NO, Says Deano .
It was inevitable that the Wanderers would struggle when Gartside appointed half wit's with no experience of managing a top half prem side and then sold our best player without replacements being lined up.
If we had appointed a manager with some stature in the game, someone the players could look up to, we may have been able to push up in to the top half of the table once again and maybe even have a better chance of a run in the uefa cup.
I'm being very optimistic but i do believe the playing staff we have can get us out of the relegation place with the games we have left, as i think Birmingham have less chance of gaining points from their remaining games, so here's to the Whites and a win at the weekend, i'm gunning for an honourable one nil win !! lets get behind them !
WHITES ARMY !
Posted by: devonshire., blackpool. on 11:51am Thu 10 Apr 08
I,believe when we got into the top four last season,it put the s---s up garside and his fellow directors how much money it would have took to back sam in the champions league.
from then on sam lost interest,just look since
january last year we have only taken 43 points
in a seasons and half relegation form in anyone
s book.
none of the supportors wants us to go down
so keep praying
there is only one man to blame and one man only
GARSIDE he appointed MEGSON.
I,believe when we got into the top four last season,it put the s---s up garside and his fellow directors how much money it would have took to back sam in the champions league.
from then on sam lost interest,just look since
january last year we have only taken 43 points
in a seasons and half relegation form in anyone
s book.
none of the supportors wants us to go down
so keep praying
there is only one man to blame and one man only
GARSIDE he appointed MEGSON.
Posted by: barbarossa, poulton le fylde on 12:03pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]devonshire.[/bold] wrote:
I,believe when we got into the top four last season,it put the s---s up garside and his fellow directors how much money it would have took to back sam in the champions league. from then on sam lost interest,just look since january last year we have only taken 43 points in a seasons and half relegation form in anyone s book. none of the supportors wants us to go down so keep praying there is only one man to blame and one man only GARSIDE he appointed MEGSON.[/quote] Agreed. When we got so close to the Champions League it frightened the Bolton directors to death.They were far too mean and small-minded for this and were determined it would never happen again.
devonshire. wrote:
I,believe when we got into the top four last season,it put the s---s up garside and his fellow directors how much money it would have took to back sam in the champions league. from then on sam lost interest,just look since january last year we have only taken 43 points in a seasons and half relegation form in anyone s book. none of the supportors wants us to go down so keep praying there is only one man to blame and one man only GARSIDE he appointed MEGSON.
Agreed. When we got so close to the Champions League it frightened the Bolton directors to death.They were far too mean and small-minded for this and were determined it would never happen again.
I have noticed that Birmingham are being investigated for possible corruption.
Dare I suggest that the Bolton board be investigated for a charge of Gross Incompetance. Of the two investigations I know who is more likely to be guilty!!!
I have noticed that Birmingham are being investigated for possible corruption.
Dare I suggest that the Bolton board be investigated for a charge of Gross Incompetance. Of the two investigations I know who is more likely to be guilty!!!
Posted by: powerplay71, bolton on 12:49pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Was it inevitable Wanderers would struggle once Sam Allardyce left the Reebok?
Well appointing managers who have little manager experience or relegated all their previous clubs then selling the only player who scores regulary without finding a replacement probably wouldn`t help Wanderers hopes of success....there again we all know that..EXCEPT Phil`no ambition but has a fat wallet`Gartside
Was it inevitable Wanderers would struggle once Sam Allardyce left the Reebok?
Well appointing managers who have little manager experience or relegated all their previous clubs then selling the only player who scores regulary without finding a replacement probably wouldn`t help Wanderers hopes of success....there again we all know that..EXCEPT Phil`no ambition but has a fat wallet`Gartside
Posted by: powerplay71, bolton on 12:52pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Was it inevitable Wanderers would struggle once Sam Allardyce left the Reebok?
Well appointing managers who have little manager experience or relegated all their previous clubs then selling the only player who scores regulary without finding a replacement probably wouldn`t help Wanderers hopes of success....there again we all know that..EXCEPT Phil`no ambition but has a fat wallet`Gartside
Was it inevitable Wanderers would struggle once Sam Allardyce left the Reebok?
Well appointing managers who have little manager experience or relegated all their previous clubs then selling the only player who scores regulary without finding a replacement probably wouldn`t help Wanderers hopes of success....there again we all know that..EXCEPT Phil`no ambition but has a fat wallet`Gartside
Posted by: CITY Till I Die 2, Manchester on 12:57pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Hello Ladies!
I'm back, my prophesy of the demise of the "mighty" whites is almost complete.
Watching you over the past month has been hilarious, if somewhat boring, you really don't have a clue!!
Next season come and watch a real team with world class players, although the 12 fingered members of your entourage can stay back in Breightmet.
CITY!
Hello Ladies!
I'm back, my prophesy of the demise of the "mighty" whites is almost complete.
Watching you over the past month has been hilarious, if somewhat boring, you really don't have a clue!!
Next season come and watch a real team with world class players, although the 12 fingered members of your entourage can stay back in Breightmet.
Posted by: Aidan, sheffield on 1:31pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Allardyce going was a blow, but is now a very good excuse for other peoples failings. It wasnt the fact Sam left it was all the other decisions that snowballed the problem. Employing Sammy Lee,
not advertising the job,
signing 12 players for £4.99,
employing Megson,
selling Anelka,
replacing him with Rasiak,
Surrendering the UEFA CUP.
Apart from this I dont think they have done anything wrong.
Allardyce going was a blow, but is now a very good excuse for other peoples failings. It wasnt the fact Sam left it was all the other decisions that snowballed the problem. Employing Sammy Lee,
not advertising the job,
signing 12 players for £4.99,
employing Megson,
selling Anelka,
replacing him with Rasiak,
Surrendering the UEFA CUP.
Apart from this I dont think they have done anything wrong.
Posted by: The Song Remains The Same, BL3 on 3:15pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]CITY Till I Die 2[/bold] wrote:
Hello Ladies! I'm back, my prophesy of the demise of the "mighty" whites is almost complete. Watching you over the past month has been hilarious, if somewhat boring, you really don't have a clue!! Next season come and watch a real team with world class players, although the 12 fingered members of your entourage can stay back in Breightmet. CITY! [/quote] what a great idea. We can all get ponytails,goofy teeth and help the world's greatest fans fill their ground.
CITY Till I Die 2 wrote:
Hello Ladies! I'm back, my prophesy of the demise of the "mighty" whites is almost complete. Watching you over the past month has been hilarious, if somewhat boring, you really don't have a clue!! Next season come and watch a real team with world class players, although the 12 fingered members of your entourage can stay back in Breightmet. CITY!
what a great idea. We can all get ponytails,goofy teeth and help the world's greatest fans fill their ground.
This debate, whilst in one sense belated and welcome, is also premature in that the season is not yet over and the facts are shrouded in mystery.
However, seeing that it has at last emerged formally, in my opinion it is being couched in terms which are too insular.
Our National Teams, Our top (Premier) League and both FA and League Cups, and now UEFA and in my opinion the Champions League and even once functional Reserve team leagues have been debased as competitions thanks to the oldest and most pernicious of individual and corporate temptations: Money as exemplified by all that goes on in the breakaway Premier League!
The Premier League is in no sense a fair competition.It is impoverished for that and many games are dull. These last two or three years the problem has escalated and is accelerating in its effects. The Chelsea model of overseas, sometimes corporate ownership hasspread to Man Utd,Liverpool.Villa, Spurs, Man City, Portsmouth and West Ham. Add to that the buying power of Arsenal and Spurs. Just look at the table. Only Everton and Blackburn have to any degree lived with this competition. Now look at all the single British ( or nearly British) single-owner clubs:Bolton,Reading
,Newcastle, Derby, Fulham, Middlesbro, Wigan, Birmingham, Sunderland, Newcastle
And there we have the league table. Positions in broad terms are absolutely nothing to do with management, are they?!And now for another mind-boggling prediction:QPR will be in the top two of the Championship next year!And another: one of the top ten foreign owned teams will go spectacularly bust in the next five years!
Big Sam, after a really tedious league
beginning, which was culturally stifling after what was for the most part a very exciting, attacking era under Rioch and then Todd,stole a competitive edge. This was pre You Tube and the full and easy globalisation of knowledge, images and facts about players and the full scope and cancerous spread of multi-continental agents.Initially Sam, possibly with more credit than we know here due to board and administrators, pioneered the loans of first Johnson and Ritchie (took us to the FA Cup semi and the Ipswich play off) then majestically Djorkaeff, Hierro and in due course Bobic, Campo, Mendy, Candela and others. He was lucky that Eidur was storming back from serious injury under the general radar of other clubs. He was privileged to have Gudni Bergsson as his captain. He had been lucky also that the Board had stabilised things and cashed in advantageously on Gunlauggson,Blake,Fr
andsen and Jensen ( and we didn't like that at the time) He was lucky also in the new Reebok era that we all supported a successful team in great numbers!He was also lucky that the 3-5-1 system bore such fruit in Div 1 sometimes even with the likes of Bo Hansen and that it took off in the Premier League with us ahead of the game.. He was brave in advancing the cause of Sports Science and psychological support networks. He also had the nous to retrieve Frandsen from Blackburn.
The proposition advanced that Big Sam left because he was refused money by Gartside is insidious, tendentious and only partially correct if at all.
Yes Big Sam and Gartside may have fallen out. Perhaps if they had trekked to the Himalayas all would have been well? But whatever the ins and outs of this, we are not in corporate, overseas ownership ( and thank God for that!). We have had and have a sizeable debt.The financial trapdoor continuously beckoned and beckons.We must preserve our heritage. We must not risk financial ruin.If that meant selling Anelka, fine by me. ( But did it?)
My memory is that Sam aspired to the England job in an act of colossal hubris,and things were never quite the same again! Yes we had a good league position in part due to some incredibly lucky 0-1 wins. But essentially,he did a Ricketts on himself and sadly this has carried on at Newcastle!I seem to recall also that his dealings and those of the club were in a very nasty public spotlight-whether fairly or not!Things were just going sour and this showed on the field and, hey let's not forget this: he was lured by Newcastle and took staff with him
So, was our decline inevitable? Almost certainly yes,in Premier League terms. Perhaps it could have been arrested for a few years or more by a different manager, a Moyes or a Hughes but probably only to the tune of 11th or 12th place. Maybe it can again if we survive?
The real question we should debate, though, is whether or not our moral decline, so well attested by the general tenor of contributions to this site, was inevitable and what must happen to restore our Pride and Trust in BWFC.
I believe BWFC slipped morally in the Big Sam era with
1.Allegations of corruption
2.Under-strength sides in FA and League cup competitions and even, lest we forget, early UEFA rounds
I believe too that our moral decline could have been arrested, even despite the general tide of affairs, perhaps by changes at the Top, public debate, consultation and policy or maybe by the appointment of a strong manager.
Sadly the decline has has now been compounded by
1. desperate public relations by owner, board and two managers
2. sterile and negative on- field tactics
( which actually Big Sam's seldom were- how could they be with some of the above players in his teams- he had both defensive and attacking options)
3. the sacrifice of FA Cup aspirations
4. ( biggest of all) the prioritisation of moribund, corrupt and possibly temporary Premier League status over the nobility of the UEFA cup; our dream and highest aspiration and that of all respectable professional players. Prioritising a game at Wigan over a game at Lisbon! Ridiculous.
If we then are to conduct our obituaries ahead of death then we can debate the sales of Anelka, Michalik and Speed.Or crazy defensive substitutions?. We may even get into challenging the value ( as yet) of the relatively inexperienced Cahill and the Babbeled Steinsson or wondering about the enigma of missing players Stelios, Vaz Te, Andranik, Alonso or the amazing purchase of Rasiak or the fallouts with Meite and Diouf . We might feel Al Habsi should have played in January and maybe a freshened and fit Jaaskalainen returning now.
But these on field decisions, however baffling and however damning of Megson's tactical or managerial ability are not the real issue and it should be acknowledged that he has had some successes : subbing us to victory v Birmingham,4-4-2 at Reading, triumphs over Man Utd, Atletico, Red Star and some near misses Portsmouth.
The real issue for me is that somehow Board, ownership and management have colluded with Mammon and debased my enjoyment of the game- and I have enjoyed and can enjoy BWFC games in any division. I have loved our cup successes. Maybe these will return.
But Big Sam's departure was for me the opportunity to reverse the decline I most cared about. If he returns, who knows, he might himself reverse it, but I'm afraid that the current managerial transients have just made everything that matters worse.That's why for me they must leave and the sooner the better. But can they summon up this one noble act?
This debate, whilst in one sense belated and welcome, is also premature in that the season is not yet over and the facts are shrouded in mystery.
However, seeing that it has at last emerged formally, in my opinion it is being couched in terms which are too insular.
Our National Teams, Our top (Premier) League and both FA and League Cups, and now UEFA and in my opinion the Champions League and even once functional Reserve team leagues have been debased as competitions thanks to the oldest and most pernicious of individual and corporate temptations: Money as exemplified by all that goes on in the breakaway Premier League!
The Premier League is in no sense a fair competition.It is impoverished for that and many games are dull. These last two or three years the problem has escalated and is accelerating in its effects. The Chelsea model of overseas, sometimes corporate ownership hasspread to Man Utd,Liverpool.Villa, Spurs, Man City, Portsmouth and West Ham. Add to that the buying power of Arsenal and Spurs. Just look at the table. Only Everton and Blackburn have to any degree lived with this competition. Now look at all the single British ( or nearly British) single-owner clubs:Bolton,Reading
,Newcastle, Derby, Fulham, Middlesbro, Wigan, Birmingham, Sunderland, Newcastle
And there we have the league table. Positions in broad terms are absolutely nothing to do with management, are they?!And now for another mind-boggling prediction:QPR will be in the top two of the Championship next year!And another: one of the top ten foreign owned teams will go spectacularly bust in the next five years!
Big Sam, after a really tedious league
beginning, which was culturally stifling after what was for the most part a very exciting, attacking era under Rioch and then Todd,stole a competitive edge. This was pre You Tube and the full and easy globalisation of knowledge, images and facts about players and the full scope and cancerous spread of multi-continental agents.Initially Sam, possibly with more credit than we know here due to board and administrators, pioneered the loans of first Johnson and Ritchie (took us to the FA Cup semi and the Ipswich play off) then majestically Djorkaeff, Hierro and in due course Bobic, Campo, Mendy, Candela and others. He was lucky that Eidur was storming back from serious injury under the general radar of other clubs. He was privileged to have Gudni Bergsson as his captain. He had been lucky also that the Board had stabilised things and cashed in advantageously on Gunlauggson,Blake,Fr
andsen and Jensen ( and we didn't like that at the time) He was lucky also in the new Reebok era that we all supported a successful team in great numbers!He was also lucky that the 3-5-1 system bore such fruit in Div 1 sometimes even with the likes of Bo Hansen and that it took off in the Premier League with us ahead of the game.. He was brave in advancing the cause of Sports Science and psychological support networks. He also had the nous to retrieve Frandsen from Blackburn.
The proposition advanced that Big Sam left because he was refused money by Gartside is insidious, tendentious and only partially correct if at all.
Yes Big Sam and Gartside may have fallen out. Perhaps if they had trekked to the Himalayas all would have been well? But whatever the ins and outs of this, we are not in corporate, overseas ownership ( and thank God for that!). We have had and have a sizeable debt.The financial trapdoor continuously beckoned and beckons.We must preserve our heritage. We must not risk financial ruin.If that meant selling Anelka, fine by me. ( But did it?)
My memory is that Sam aspired to the England job in an act of colossal hubris,and things were never quite the same again! Yes we had a good league position in part due to some incredibly lucky 0-1 wins. But essentially,he did a Ricketts on himself and sadly this has carried on at Newcastle!I seem to recall also that his dealings and those of the club were in a very nasty public spotlight-whether fairly or not!Things were just going sour and this showed on the field and, hey let's not forget this: he was lured by Newcastle and took staff with him
So, was our decline inevitable? Almost certainly yes,in Premier League terms. Perhaps it could have been arrested for a few years or more by a different manager, a Moyes or a Hughes but probably only to the tune of 11th or 12th place. Maybe it can again if we survive?
The real question we should debate, though, is whether or not our moral decline, so well attested by the general tenor of contributions to this site, was inevitable and what must happen to restore our Pride and Trust in BWFC.
I believe BWFC slipped morally in the Big Sam era with
1.Allegations of corruption
2.Under-strength sides in FA and League cup competitions and even, lest we forget, early UEFA rounds
I believe too that our moral decline could have been arrested, even despite the general tide of affairs, perhaps by changes at the Top, public debate, consultation and policy or maybe by the appointment of a strong manager.
Sadly the decline has has now been compounded by
1. desperate public relations by owner, board and two managers
2. sterile and negative on- field tactics
( which actually Big Sam's seldom were- how could they be with some of the above players in his teams- he had both defensive and attacking options)
3. the sacrifice of FA Cup aspirations
4. ( biggest of all) the prioritisation of moribund, corrupt and possibly temporary Premier League status over the nobility of the UEFA cup; our dream and highest aspiration and that of all respectable professional players. Prioritising a game at Wigan over a game at Lisbon! Ridiculous.
If we then are to conduct our obituaries ahead of death then we can debate the sales of Anelka, Michalik and Speed.Or crazy defensive substitutions?. We may even get into challenging the value ( as yet) of the relatively inexperienced Cahill and the Babbeled Steinsson or wondering about the enigma of missing players Stelios, Vaz Te, Andranik, Alonso or the amazing purchase of Rasiak or the fallouts with Meite and Diouf . We might feel Al Habsi should have played in January and maybe a freshened and fit Jaaskalainen returning now.
But these on field decisions, however baffling and however damning of Megson's tactical or managerial ability are not the real issue and it should be acknowledged that he has had some successes : subbing us to victory v Birmingham,4-4-2 at Reading, triumphs over Man Utd, Atletico, Red Star and some near misses Portsmouth.
The real issue for me is that somehow Board, ownership and management have colluded with Mammon and debased my enjoyment of the game- and I have enjoyed and can enjoy BWFC games in any division. I have loved our cup successes. Maybe these will return.
But Big Sam's departure was for me the opportunity to reverse the decline I most cared about. If he returns, who knows, he might himself reverse it, but I'm afraid that the current managerial transients have just made everything that matters worse.That's why for me they must leave and the sooner the better. But can they summon up this one noble act?
Posted by: The Sheriff, Texas, just outside Clitheroe on 4:56pm Thu 10 Apr 08
I had little doubt that when Big Sam went the only way was down, we were punching well above our weight and i beleive that it was almost solely down to Sam. I do give some credit to Gartside for supporting him in the early days.
When Sam went i expected to struggle but not as spectacularly as we have. There is no doubt that the Chairman is responsible for the penny pinching and poor appointments and therefore he must go. I thank him for much of what he has done in the past, BUT the past is the past and in just 12months he has brought my club to its knees, i just prey its not terminal.
The Sheriff.
I had little doubt that when Big Sam went the only way was down, we were punching well above our weight and i beleive that it was almost solely down to Sam. I do give some credit to Gartside for supporting him in the early days.
When Sam went i expected to struggle but not as spectacularly as we have. There is no doubt that the Chairman is responsible for the penny pinching and poor appointments and therefore he must go. I thank him for much of what he has done in the past, BUT the past is the past and in just 12months he has brought my club to its knees, i just prey its not terminal.
Posted by: Andy, Staffordshire on 5:06pm Thu 10 Apr 08
I voted yes not because I'm a big fan of Allardyce but he left because of the way the running of the club had deteriorated over the previous 2 years.BSA left LSL came in, LSL was fired Megson came in, Megson will probably be fired some time in the summer. When people in an entrenched position can not admit and face failure very short term decisions are the result.The money ran out 3 years ago effectively and the demise of the team can be charted from there. Subsequent events have shown that showering Allardyce with money does not work.People forget that the team at its 6th -8th position in the league was started in the division below (Jussi and Ricky are after all Todd signings). The trick was to have Ricketts for his 1 season and to bring in the likes of N'Gotty, Okocha etc to go with the Whitlows and Bergssons of this world.That is the area Allardyce was excellent in, he just wasn't cut out for the next stage. Sad to say (and I dearly hope it does not happen) but the club needs to go down for a good clear out and to start from new.Not Allardyce or Megson but Phil Brown, now he's learnt a thing about managing would be my choice.In all probability Hull will not go up so give him a chance-he would literally jump at the job without a second thought. Unfortunately it needs Davies, Gartside and Megson to all leave and that I can not see happening. Until and unless that happens there will be 4 empty seats in the West Stand Lower. Our club has been strangled to death by these people. The club will be there long after their time; they should take more care of it.
I voted yes not because I'm a big fan of Allardyce but he left because of the way the running of the club had deteriorated over the previous 2 years.BSA left LSL came in, LSL was fired Megson came in, Megson will probably be fired some time in the summer. When people in an entrenched position can not admit and face failure very short term decisions are the result.The money ran out 3 years ago effectively and the demise of the team can be charted from there. Subsequent events have shown that showering Allardyce with money does not work.People forget that the team at its 6th -8th position in the league was started in the division below (Jussi and Ricky are after all Todd signings). The trick was to have Ricketts for his 1 season and to bring in the likes of N'Gotty, Okocha etc to go with the Whitlows and Bergssons of this world.That is the area Allardyce was excellent in, he just wasn't cut out for the next stage. Sad to say (and I dearly hope it does not happen) but the club needs to go down for a good clear out and to start from new.Not Allardyce or Megson but Phil Brown, now he's learnt a thing about managing would be my choice.In all probability Hull will not go up so give him a chance-he would literally jump at the job without a second thought. Unfortunately it needs Davies, Gartside and Megson to all leave and that I can not see happening. Until and unless that happens there will be 4 empty seats in the West Stand Lower. Our club has been strangled to death by these people. The club will be there long after their time; they should take more care of it.
Posted by: Bristolwhite, Bristol on 5:09pm Thu 10 Apr 08
NO. Without doubt Big Sam had taken the club as far as he could without the big bucks.What we needed then was indeed a manager to take us to another level, a good European coach with success at a similar sized club in Europe would have jumped at the chance to manage an English team in the top half of the premier league - and in Europe! Bizarrely the Chairman thought that a novice manager was the right choice, it wasn't, he then offered the job to a manager whose CV suggested he wasn't the right man either and..... Any change in regime would have resulted in an initial drop - to below mid-table probably, had the right candidate been appointed. We are where we are because of the Chairman's appointments and we are now struggling. (brink of)Champions league to (brink of)Championship - well, that is another level for sure!
NO. Without doubt Big Sam had taken the club as far as he could without the big bucks.What we needed then was indeed a manager to take us to another level, a good European coach with success at a similar sized club in Europe would have jumped at the chance to manage an English team in the top half of the premier league - and in Europe! Bizarrely the Chairman thought that a novice manager was the right choice, it wasn't, he then offered the job to a manager whose CV suggested he wasn't the right man either and..... Any change in regime would have resulted in an initial drop - to below mid-table probably, had the right candidate been appointed. We are where we are because of the Chairman's appointments and we are now struggling. (brink of)Champions league to (brink of)Championship - well, that is another level for sure!
[quote][bold]Andy L[/bold] wrote:
This debate, whilst in one sense belated and welcome, is also premature in that the season is not yet over and the facts are shrouded in mystery. However, seeing that it has at last emerged formally, in my opinion it is being couched in terms which are too insular. Our National Teams, Our top (Premier) League and both FA and League Cups, and now UEFA and in my opinion the Champions League and even once functional Reserve team leagues have been debased as competitions thanks to the oldest and most pernicious of individual and corporate temptations: Money as exemplified by all that goes on in the breakaway Premier League! The Premier League is in no sense a fair competition.It is impoverished for that and many games are dull. These last two or three years the problem has escalated and is accelerating in its effects. The Chelsea model of overseas, sometimes corporate ownership hasspread to Man Utd,Liverpool.Villa, Spurs, Man City, Portsmouth and West Ham. Add to that the buying power of Arsenal and Spurs. Just look at the table. Only Everton and Blackburn have to any degree lived with this competition. Now look at all the single British ( or nearly British) single-owner clubs:Bolton,Reading ,Newcastle, Derby, Fulham, Middlesbro, Wigan, Birmingham, Sunderland, Newcastle And there we have the league table. Positions in broad terms are absolutely nothing to do with management, are they?!And now for another mind-boggling prediction:QPR will be in the top two of the Championship next year!And another: one of the top ten foreign owned teams will go spectacularly bust in the next five years! Big Sam, after a really tedious league beginning, which was culturally stifling after what was for the most part a very exciting, attacking era under Rioch and then Todd,stole a competitive edge. This was pre You Tube and the full and easy globalisation of knowledge, images and facts about players and the full scope and cancerous spread of multi-continental agents.Initially Sam, possibly with more credit than we know here due to board and administrators, pioneered the loans of first Johnson and Ritchie (took us to the FA Cup semi and the Ipswich play off) then majestically Djorkaeff, Hierro and in due course Bobic, Campo, Mendy, Candela and others. He was lucky that Eidur was storming back from serious injury under the general radar of other clubs. He was privileged to have Gudni Bergsson as his captain. He had been lucky also that the Board had stabilised things and cashed in advantageously on Gunlauggson,Blake,Fr andsen and Jensen ( and we didn't like that at the time) He was lucky also in the new Reebok era that we all supported a successful team in great numbers!He was also lucky that the 3-5-1 system bore such fruit in Div 1 sometimes even with the likes of Bo Hansen and that it took off in the Premier League with us ahead of the game.. He was brave in advancing the cause of Sports Science and psychological support networks. He also had the nous to retrieve Frandsen from Blackburn. The proposition advanced that Big Sam left because he was refused money by Gartside is insidious, tendentious and only partially correct if at all. Yes Big Sam and Gartside may have fallen out. Perhaps if they had trekked to the Himalayas all would have been well? But whatever the ins and outs of this, we are not in corporate, overseas ownership ( and thank God for that!). We have had and have a sizeable debt.The financial trapdoor continuously beckoned and beckons.We must preserve our heritage. We must not risk financial ruin.If that meant selling Anelka, fine by me. ( But did it?) My memory is that Sam aspired to the England job in an act of colossal hubris,and things were never quite the same again! Yes we had a good league position in part due to some incredibly lucky 0-1 wins. But essentially,he did a Ricketts on himself and sadly this has carried on at Newcastle!I seem to recall also that his dealings and those of the club were in a very nasty public spotlight-whether fairly or not!Things were just going sour and this showed on the field and, hey let's not forget this: he was lured by Newcastle and took staff with him So, was our decline inevitable? Almost certainly yes,in Premier League terms. Perhaps it could have been arrested for a few years or more by a different manager, a Moyes or a Hughes but probably only to the tune of 11th or 12th place. Maybe it can again if we survive? The real question we should debate, though, is whether or not our moral decline, so well attested by the general tenor of contributions to this site, was inevitable and what must happen to restore our Pride and Trust in BWFC. I believe BWFC slipped morally in the Big Sam era with 1.Allegations of corruption 2.Under-strength sides in FA and League cup competitions and even, lest we forget, early UEFA rounds I believe too that our moral decline could have been arrested, even despite the general tide of affairs, perhaps by changes at the Top, public debate, consultation and policy or maybe by the appointment of a strong manager. Sadly the decline has has now been compounded by 1. desperate public relations by owner, board and two managers 2. sterile and negative on- field tactics ( which actually Big Sam's seldom were- how could they be with some of the above players in his teams- he had both defensive and attacking options) 3. the sacrifice of FA Cup aspirations 4. ( biggest of all) the prioritisation of moribund, corrupt and possibly temporary Premier League status over the nobility of the UEFA cup; our dream and highest aspiration and that of all respectable professional players. Prioritising a game at Wigan over a game at Lisbon! Ridiculous. If we then are to conduct our obituaries ahead of death then we can debate the sales of Anelka, Michalik and Speed.Or crazy defensive substitutions?. We may even get into challenging the value ( as yet) of the relatively inexperienced Cahill and the Babbeled Steinsson or wondering about the enigma of missing players Stelios, Vaz Te, Andranik, Alonso or the amazing purchase of Rasiak or the fallouts with Meite and Diouf . We might feel Al Habsi should have played in January and maybe a freshened and fit Jaaskalainen returning now. But these on field decisions, however baffling and however damning of Megson's tactical or managerial ability are not the real issue and it should be acknowledged that he has had some successes : subbing us to victory v Birmingham,4-4-2 at Reading, triumphs over Man Utd, Atletico, Red Star and some near misses Portsmouth. The real issue for me is that somehow Board, ownership and management have colluded with Mammon and debased my enjoyment of the game- and I have enjoyed and can enjoy BWFC games in any division. I have loved our cup successes. Maybe these will return. But Big Sam's departure was for me the opportunity to reverse the decline I most cared about. If he returns, who knows, he might himself reverse it, but I'm afraid that the current managerial transients have just made everything that matters worse.That's why for me they must leave and the sooner the better. But can they summon up this one noble act?[/quote] What a cracking article. This guy should get Sharrock's job. He actually has words with more than two syllables AND he has not stooped to name calling. And he is right of course. Even when we were riding high, how many really, really enjoyable games were there? Very few. But there were so many boring ones. The entire experience was devalued. We were in a competition we could never win and eventually we were going to tire of the experience, hence the decline in attendances even when we were doing well. Remember Allardyce's comment that 'he was not in the entertainment business'? Well sorry Sam, but you were and the fact that you did'nt entertain turned me off your brand of football well before you left. That still does'nt mean that relegation is easy to take, but sometimes we have to accept that the world has moved on and the days of really worthwhile trips to watch the wanderers when we had entertainment AND results have now gone in the corrupt and tainted world of football so eloquently described in the article above.The antics of Gartside and Megson have antagonised the fans beyond belief, but they are simply a product of the sickening world we know as the 'premier league'.
Andy L wrote:
This debate, whilst in one sense belated and welcome, is also premature in that the season is not yet over and the facts are shrouded in mystery. However, seeing that it has at last emerged formally, in my opinion it is being couched in terms which are too insular. Our National Teams, Our top (Premier) League and both FA and League Cups, and now UEFA and in my opinion the Champions League and even once functional Reserve team leagues have been debased as competitions thanks to the oldest and most pernicious of individual and corporate temptations: Money as exemplified by all that goes on in the breakaway Premier League! The Premier League is in no sense a fair competition.It is impoverished for that and many games are dull. These last two or three years the problem has escalated and is accelerating in its effects. The Chelsea model of overseas, sometimes corporate ownership hasspread to Man Utd,Liverpool.Villa, Spurs, Man City, Portsmouth and West Ham. Add to that the buying power of Arsenal and Spurs. Just look at the table. Only Everton and Blackburn have to any degree lived with this competition. Now look at all the single British ( or nearly British) single-owner clubs:Bolton,Reading ,Newcastle, Derby, Fulham, Middlesbro, Wigan, Birmingham, Sunderland, Newcastle And there we have the league table. Positions in broad terms are absolutely nothing to do with management, are they?!And now for another mind-boggling prediction:QPR will be in the top two of the Championship next year!And another: one of the top ten foreign owned teams will go spectacularly bust in the next five years! Big Sam, after a really tedious league beginning, which was culturally stifling after what was for the most part a very exciting, attacking era under Rioch and then Todd,stole a competitive edge. This was pre You Tube and the full and easy globalisation of knowledge, images and facts about players and the full scope and cancerous spread of multi-continental agents.Initially Sam, possibly with more credit than we know here due to board and administrators, pioneered the loans of first Johnson and Ritchie (took us to the FA Cup semi and the Ipswich play off) then majestically Djorkaeff, Hierro and in due course Bobic, Campo, Mendy, Candela and others. He was lucky that Eidur was storming back from serious injury under the general radar of other clubs. He was privileged to have Gudni Bergsson as his captain. He had been lucky also that the Board had stabilised things and cashed in advantageously on Gunlauggson,Blake,Fr andsen and Jensen ( and we didn't like that at the time) He was lucky also in the new Reebok era that we all supported a successful team in great numbers!He was also lucky that the 3-5-1 system bore such fruit in Div 1 sometimes even with the likes of Bo Hansen and that it took off in the Premier League with us ahead of the game.. He was brave in advancing the cause of Sports Science and psychological support networks. He also had the nous to retrieve Frandsen from Blackburn. The proposition advanced that Big Sam left because he was refused money by Gartside is insidious, tendentious and only partially correct if at all. Yes Big Sam and Gartside may have fallen out. Perhaps if they had trekked to the Himalayas all would have been well? But whatever the ins and outs of this, we are not in corporate, overseas ownership ( and thank God for that!). We have had and have a sizeable debt.The financial trapdoor continuously beckoned and beckons.We must preserve our heritage. We must not risk financial ruin.If that meant selling Anelka, fine by me. ( But did it?) My memory is that Sam aspired to the England job in an act of colossal hubris,and things were never quite the same again! Yes we had a good league position in part due to some incredibly lucky 0-1 wins. But essentially,he did a Ricketts on himself and sadly this has carried on at Newcastle!I seem to recall also that his dealings and those of the club were in a very nasty public spotlight-whether fairly or not!Things were just going sour and this showed on the field and, hey let's not forget this: he was lured by Newcastle and took staff with him So, was our decline inevitable? Almost certainly yes,in Premier League terms. Perhaps it could have been arrested for a few years or more by a different manager, a Moyes or a Hughes but probably only to the tune of 11th or 12th place. Maybe it can again if we survive? The real question we should debate, though, is whether or not our moral decline, so well attested by the general tenor of contributions to this site, was inevitable and what must happen to restore our Pride and Trust in BWFC. I believe BWFC slipped morally in the Big Sam era with 1.Allegations of corruption 2.Under-strength sides in FA and League cup competitions and even, lest we forget, early UEFA rounds I believe too that our moral decline could have been arrested, even despite the general tide of affairs, perhaps by changes at the Top, public debate, consultation and policy or maybe by the appointment of a strong manager. Sadly the decline has has now been compounded by 1. desperate public relations by owner, board and two managers 2. sterile and negative on- field tactics ( which actually Big Sam's seldom were- how could they be with some of the above players in his teams- he had both defensive and attacking options) 3. the sacrifice of FA Cup aspirations 4. ( biggest of all) the prioritisation of moribund, corrupt and possibly temporary Premier League status over the nobility of the UEFA cup; our dream and highest aspiration and that of all respectable professional players. Prioritising a game at Wigan over a game at Lisbon! Ridiculous. If we then are to conduct our obituaries ahead of death then we can debate the sales of Anelka, Michalik and Speed.Or crazy defensive substitutions?. We may even get into challenging the value ( as yet) of the relatively inexperienced Cahill and the Babbeled Steinsson or wondering about the enigma of missing players Stelios, Vaz Te, Andranik, Alonso or the amazing purchase of Rasiak or the fallouts with Meite and Diouf . We might feel Al Habsi should have played in January and maybe a freshened and fit Jaaskalainen returning now. But these on field decisions, however baffling and however damning of Megson's tactical or managerial ability are not the real issue and it should be acknowledged that he has had some successes : subbing us to victory v Birmingham,4-4-2 at Reading, triumphs over Man Utd, Atletico, Red Star and some near misses Portsmouth. The real issue for me is that somehow Board, ownership and management have colluded with Mammon and debased my enjoyment of the game- and I have enjoyed and can enjoy BWFC games in any division. I have loved our cup successes. Maybe these will return. But Big Sam's departure was for me the opportunity to reverse the decline I most cared about. If he returns, who knows, he might himself reverse it, but I'm afraid that the current managerial transients have just made everything that matters worse.That's why for me they must leave and the sooner the better. But can they summon up this one noble act?
What a cracking article. This guy should get Sharrock's job. He actually has words with more than two syllables AND he has not stooped to name calling. And he is right of course. Even when we were riding high, how many really, really enjoyable games were there? Very few. But there were so many boring ones. The entire experience was devalued. We were in a competition we could never win and eventually we were going to tire of the experience, hence the decline in attendances even when we were doing well. Remember Allardyce's comment that 'he was not in the entertainment business'? Well sorry Sam, but you were and the fact that you did'nt entertain turned me off your brand of football well before you left. That still does'nt mean that relegation is easy to take, but sometimes we have to accept that the world has moved on and the days of really worthwhile trips to watch the wanderers when we had entertainment AND results have now gone in the corrupt and tainted world of football so eloquently described in the article above.The antics of Gartside and Megson have antagonised the fans beyond belief, but they are simply a product of the sickening world we know as the 'premier league'.
Posted by: Steve Battersby, Oldham on 5:52pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Through this website I would like to ask the Sports Editor to print Andy L's article above, in full, as the lead article in tomorrow's hard copy of The Bolton News. Indeed, as a piece of well reasoned journalism I have not seen its equal on this site. It is both an acutely accurate commentary on the current plight of the club and a biting indictment of the state of The Premier League and football in the UK in general. It is also, come to think of it, a sad reflection of the massively over judgemental society we now live in. I freely admit voicing my displeasure at events over the past few months, sometimes letting the emotions of 44 years of uninterrupted support outweigh the rationality that I should apply to what is after all my hobby and not my livelihood. If websites such as this could engender such constructive criticism and not resort to the abuse and bile that we have recently been exposed to, the chances of the club entering into a more meaningful rhetoric with its supporters might also be slightly enhanced.
So once again, please reproduce Andy's article - it could sit just as comfortably on the front page as on the back page, as I believe it encapsulates the climate that hangs over The Reebok quite perfectly.
Through this website I would like to ask the Sports Editor to print Andy L's article above, in full, as the lead article in tomorrow's hard copy of The Bolton News. Indeed, as a piece of well reasoned journalism I have not seen its equal on this site. It is both an acutely accurate commentary on the current plight of the club and a biting indictment of the state of The Premier League and football in the UK in general. It is also, come to think of it, a sad reflection of the massively over judgemental society we now live in. I freely admit voicing my displeasure at events over the past few months, sometimes letting the emotions of 44 years of uninterrupted support outweigh the rationality that I should apply to what is after all my hobby and not my livelihood. If websites such as this could engender such constructive criticism and not resort to the abuse and bile that we have recently been exposed to, the chances of the club entering into a more meaningful rhetoric with its supporters might also be slightly enhanced.
So once again, please reproduce Andy's article - it could sit just as comfortably on the front page as on the back page, as I believe it encapsulates the climate that hangs over The Reebok quite perfectly.
Posted by: Gareth Jones, Australia on 6:11pm Thu 10 Apr 08
Given the subject matter of this article, and the substantial time since an article wholly devoted to Allardyce was published in this paper, the unsubstantiated rumours of Allardyce's consortium return might have some legs. Right now, I would settle for Gudni Bergsson as a caretaker till the end of the season. At least Gudni would be a figure of affection, unlike Gary Megson who has transformed himself - hanging around when he is not wanted - into a ineffectual pantomime villain.
Given the subject matter of this article, and the substantial time since an article wholly devoted to Allardyce was published in this paper, the unsubstantiated rumours of Allardyce's consortium return might have some legs. Right now, I would settle for Gudni Bergsson as a caretaker till the end of the season. At least Gudni would be a figure of affection, unlike Gary Megson who has transformed himself - hanging around when he is not wanted - into a ineffectual pantomime villain.
[quote][bold]Steve Battersby[/bold] wrote:
Through this website I would like to ask the Sports Editor to print Andy L's article above, in full, as the lead article in tomorrow's hard copy of The Bolton News. Indeed, as a piece of well reasoned journalism I have not seen its equal on this site. It is both an acutely accurate commentary on the current plight of the club and a biting indictment of the state of The Premier League and football in the UK in general. It is also, come to think of it, a sad reflection of the massively over judgemental society we now live in. I freely admit voicing my displeasure at events over the past few months, sometimes letting the emotions of 44 years of uninterrupted support outweigh the rationality that I should apply to what is after all my hobby and not my livelihood. If websites such as this could engender such constructive criticism and not resort to the abuse and bile that we have recently been exposed to, the chances of the club entering into a more meaningful rhetoric with its supporters might also be slightly enhanced.
So once again, please reproduce Andy's article - it could sit just as comfortably on the front page as on the back page, as I believe it encapsulates the climate that hangs over The Reebok quite perfectly. [/quote] Agree 100% - the best thing that has been submitted to this forum for a hell of a long time - [bold]Well done Andy L!![/bold]
Steve Battersby wrote:
Through this website I would like to ask the Sports Editor to print Andy L's article above, in full, as the lead article in tomorrow's hard copy of The Bolton News. Indeed, as a piece of well reasoned journalism I have not seen its equal on this site. It is both an acutely accurate commentary on the current plight of the club and a biting indictment of the state of The Premier League and football in the UK in general. It is also, come to think of it, a sad reflection of the massively over judgemental society we now live in. I freely admit voicing my displeasure at events over the past few months, sometimes letting the emotions of 44 years of uninterrupted support outweigh the rationality that I should apply to what is after all my hobby and not my livelihood. If websites such as this could engender such constructive criticism and not resort to the abuse and bile that we have recently been exposed to, the chances of the club entering into a more meaningful rhetoric with its supporters might also be slightly enhanced.
So once again, please reproduce Andy's article - it could sit just as comfortably on the front page as on the back page, as I believe it encapsulates the climate that hangs over The Reebok quite perfectly.
Agree 100% - the best thing that has been submitted to this forum for a hell of a long time - Well done Andy L!!
Posted by: amosc99, Hoofdorp on 6:50pm Thu 10 Apr 08
This post has been posted in the news paper comments section in Nottingham, Leicester, West Bromwich/Birmingham and in Bolton!!!
If you want to show egson that not only was he useless as a player he is also useless as a manager then please help with Bolton's protest on Saturday. The person should NOT be in football altogether and should be made to resign.
You may help us, here in Bolton, or have your own protest during half-time or whatever just bu shouting Megson Out!
He has spoiled your clubs with his disastrous management and is also doing the same at Bolton.
Remember, before the match, at half-time or even after the final whistle - shows YOUR support for the Bolton fans and rid football of this person completely.
Remember...
MEGSON OUT!
MEGSON OUT!
MEGSON OUT!
This has to be a concerted effort by everyone whose clubs has been nearly destroyed by this man!
MEGSON OUT!
MEGSON OUT!
MEGSON OUT!
This post has been posted in the news paper comments section in Nottingham, Leicester, West Bromwich/Birmingham and in Bolton!!!
If you want to show egson that not only was he useless as a player he is also useless as a manager then please help with Bolton's protest on Saturday. The person should NOT be in football altogether and should be made to resign.
You may help us, here in Bolton, or have your own protest during half-time or whatever just bu shouting Megson Out!
He has spoiled your clubs with his disastrous management and is also doing the same at Bolton.
Remember, before the match, at half-time or even after the final whistle - shows YOUR support for the Bolton fans and rid football of this person completely.
Remember...
MEGSON OUT!
MEGSON OUT!
MEGSON OUT!
This has to be a concerted effort by everyone whose clubs has been nearly destroyed by this man!
Posted by: Chris Baron, Bolton on 6:58pm Thu 10 Apr 08
I have said before and i say it now , Big Sam did such a terrific job and is a terrific man with strong Bolton roots that a statue of him should stand proudly outside our ground.A manager who took us from 18th in the Championship to the top end of the Prem with no money for transfers is up there with the Fergusons and Rafa's for me. Ok we won nothing , but he put our club back into the spot light and back on the map in europe.The men responsible for the mess are 1.The owner who for me doesn't control his empire correctly and 2.Gartside , this man has got the blood boiling more than once , first of all he comes out with stuff about Big Sam that where embaressing , the lack of respect towards the best manager we've ever had was staggering.He prattled on about Sammy Lee , who was on a hiding to nothing , no experience at all thrown into a job he knew nothing about , saying he was better than Big Sam? This was after NOT interviewing other managers for the job first. What an idiot.Then he says Sammy Lee has as long as he wants in the job , that any ammount of cash will be given to him.. He then lets him buy in Helguson for 2 million? , what a waste of money, he scored 3 goals for Fulham before coming to us.The money wasn't there was it? for the Quality we needed. Then he sacks Sammy Lee , doesn't interview anyone for the job AGAIN , and installs Megson who everyone said would fail. He has , hasn't he? Megson as caused the problem with his handling of the Lisbon tie , pure and simple , the senior players where so upset at that , the Wigan game told us what they thought , they didn't show up! , now i think the dream is over , we are not going to stay up even if we beat West Ham and Sunderland. We can't win away , Boro , no chance , we never get anything there , and Spurs with Chelsea last , no way!
I have said before and i say it now , Big Sam did such a terrific job and is a terrific man with strong Bolton roots that a statue of him should stand proudly outside our ground.A manager who took us from 18th in the Championship to the top end of the Prem with no money for transfers is up there with the Fergusons and Rafa's for me. Ok we won nothing , but he put our club back into the spot light and back on the map in europe.The men responsible for the mess are 1.The owner who for me doesn't control his empire correctly and 2.Gartside , this man has got the blood boiling more than once , first of all he comes out with stuff about Big Sam that where embaressing , the lack of respect towards the best manager we've ever had was staggering.He prattled on about Sammy Lee , who was on a hiding to nothing , no experience at all thrown into a job he knew nothing about , saying he was better than Big Sam? This was after NOT interviewing other managers for the job first. What an idiot.Then he says Sammy Lee has as long as he wants in the job , that any ammount of cash will be given to him.. He then lets him buy in Helguson for 2 million? , what a waste of money, he scored 3 goals for Fulham before coming to us.The money wasn't there was it? for the Quality we needed. Then he sacks Sammy Lee , doesn't interview anyone for the job AGAIN , and installs Megson who everyone said would fail. He has , hasn't he? Megson as caused the problem with his handling of the Lisbon tie , pure and simple , the senior players where so upset at that , the Wigan game told us what they thought , they didn't show up! , now i think the dream is over , we are not going to stay up even if we beat West Ham and Sunderland. We can't win away , Boro , no chance , we never get anything there , and Spurs with Chelsea last , no way!
Posted by: hulmewhite, M15 on 7:35pm Thu 10 Apr 08
I've read the arguments but not the comments as I'm busy. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that stacks up is that the Mr Davies should have either backed Sam or sold up. The trust which controls my club is run by lawmen who probably eat prawn sandwiches at MUFC. Please go Mr Davies and take your lacky with you. Bring back Sam.
I've read the arguments but not the comments as I'm busy. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that stacks up is that the Mr Davies should have either backed Sam or sold up. The trust which controls my club is run by lawmen who probably eat prawn sandwiches at MUFC. Please go Mr Davies and take your lacky with you. Bring back Sam.
The answer is yes as simple as that. I predicted a relegation fight as soon as BSA left - I even bought a black suit to show it was the death of BWFC. DAVIES, GARTSIDE AND MEGSON MUST GO! YOU TRIED FOR A STRIKER? OBVIOUSLY NOT HARD ENOUGH. BENJANI? DEFOE? JASON ROBERTS? LEROY LITA? ZARATE? MCFADDEN? ALVES? ANY OF THESE WERE AVAILABLE OR MOVED CLUBS YET WE DIDN'T EVEN SNIFF AROUND THEM. GET OUT NOW ALL 3 OF YOU. PLEASE SAM BUY THE CLUB AND RESCUE US!
The answer is yes as simple as that. I predicted a relegation fight as soon as BSA left - I even bought a black suit to show it was the death of BWFC. DAVIES, GARTSIDE AND MEGSON MUST GO! YOU TRIED FOR A STRIKER? OBVIOUSLY NOT HARD ENOUGH. BENJANI? DEFOE? JASON ROBERTS? LEROY LITA? ZARATE? MCFADDEN? ALVES? ANY OF THESE WERE AVAILABLE OR MOVED CLUBS YET WE DIDN'T EVEN SNIFF AROUND THEM. GET OUT NOW ALL 3 OF YOU. PLEASE SAM BUY THE CLUB AND RESCUE US!
big sam would not of been a hard act to follow if we were prepared to spend some money on a world class manager & spent money on some world class players, instead of spending on a shoe string.....
big sam would not of been a hard act to follow if we were prepared to spend some money on a world class manager & spent money on some world class players, instead of spending on a shoe string.....
to the city fan u av been a bigger joke than us again this season £50m spent & can only make the fair play 2 get into uefa cup haha dream on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!1111
to the city fan u av been a bigger joke than us again this season £50m spent & can only make the fair play 2 get into uefa cup haha dream on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!1111
[quote][bold]CITY Till I Die 2[/bold] wrote:
Hello Ladies! I'm back, my prophesy of the demise of the "mighty" whites is almost complete. Watching you over the past month has been hilarious, if somewhat boring, you really don't have a clue!! Next season come and watch a real team with world class players, although the 12 fingered members of your entourage can stay back in Breightmet. CITY! [/quote] Getting a cheap thrill eh! You City fans need em you've done naff all for years. Think we've finished higher than you 7 years running till this year, we would have again but for our clueless Chairman who lost us the best Manager we've had in modern times. We'll back though & once they catch up with your Dodgy Thai you'll start plummeting again no danger!
CITY Till I Die 2 wrote:
Hello Ladies! I'm back, my prophesy of the demise of the "mighty" whites is almost complete. Watching you over the past month has been hilarious, if somewhat boring, you really don't have a clue!! Next season come and watch a real team with world class players, although the 12 fingered members of your entourage can stay back in Breightmet. CITY!
Getting a cheap thrill eh! You City fans need em you've done naff all for years. Think we've finished higher than you 7 years running till this year, we would have again but for our clueless Chairman who lost us the best Manager we've had in modern times. We'll back though & once they catch up with your Dodgy Thai you'll start plummeting again no danger!
Posted by: digger, bolton on 10:42pm Thu 10 Apr 08
yeh the city & city fan r a joke you know the new joke they r telling they think ronaldinio is gonna play 4 them instead of goin 2 chelsea hahahahahahahahahaha
hhahahahahahahahahah
ahahahahahhahahahaha
hahah looser..............
yeh the city & city fan r a joke you know the new joke they r telling they think ronaldinio is gonna play 4 them instead of goin 2 chelsea hahahahahahahahahaha
hhahahahahahahahahah
ahahahahahhahahahaha
hahah looser..............
Posted by: Reevsey n Philliskirk, stood ont burnden terrace (Bread Isle at ASDA now) on 10:54pm Thu 10 Apr 08
[quote][bold]The Song Remains The Same[/bold] wrote:
[quote][bold]CITY Till I Die 2[/bold] wrote: Hello Ladies! I'm back, my prophesy of the demise of the "mighty" whites is almost complete. Watching you over the past month has been hilarious, if somewhat boring, you really don't have a clue!! Next season come and watch a real team with world class players, although the 12 fingered members of your entourage can stay back in Breightmet. CITY! [/quote] what a great idea. We can all get ponytails,goofy teeth and help the world's greatest fans fill their ground.[/quote] Top Shout that!!!
The Song Remains The Same wrote:
CITY Till I Die 2 wrote: Hello Ladies! I'm back, my prophesy of the demise of the "mighty" whites is almost complete. Watching you over the past month has been hilarious, if somewhat boring, you really don't have a clue!! Next season come and watch a real team with world class players, although the 12 fingered members of your entourage can stay back in Breightmet. CITY!
what a great idea. We can all get ponytails,goofy teeth and help the world's greatest fans fill their ground.
Posted by: digger, bolton on 10:58pm Thu 10 Apr 08
letz not forget we should of been in the semi-final of the uefa cup 2nite rangers who ad a bad game bt sportin 2-0 it woz all set up 4 us with the final down the rd @ wastelands we could of filled that full of bolton fanz unlike the city fanz everytime i,ve seen city on sky not only av i fallen a sleep but @ the beginning of the game i,ve noticed its always half full............
letz not forget we should of been in the semi-final of the uefa cup 2nite rangers who ad a bad game bt sportin 2-0 it woz all set up 4 us with the final down the rd @ wastelands we could of filled that full of bolton fanz unlike the city fanz everytime i,ve seen city on sky not only av i fallen a sleep but @ the beginning of the game i,ve noticed its always half full............
Some kind comments above re my earlier post. Thanks,GC, Steve Battersby and Dee.If they do print any of it, I do hope they correct some of the errant grammar!
The important thing to me is that you are all acknowledging what is a plea for perspective and rationality, albeit in my case and probably most of yours, driven by emotion.
It's difficult to see how the self-feeding monster that the Premier League has become can be reformed. Somehow it needs a better balance of private sector, community and maybe even government interests ( whether of FIFA or politicians). Or maybe it will in due course just all come crashing down, all of a sudden, with financial collapse, a super European or Global league or perhaps with global competition from China or wherever. We can only wait and see
Meanwhile our beloved BWFC may just be better off in the Championship than the Premier League. Personally after 48 years of being a supporter, I'm ambivalent about that.
I am of course, as everyone on this forum, desperately disappointed about our form and the fare on offer.The issues are, for me,bigger though than arguing the toss about the relative merits of Big Sam, Sammy Lee, Megson or AN Other Messiah who may or may not be on the horizon. I think we should all be deeply grateful especially to Big Sam,but also in turn to Sammy Lee and Phil Brown as his assistants and indeed to Colin Todd and Bruce Rioch.I'd even extend said gratitude to board members and owner. If pushed up against a wall I might even be grateful to Gary Megson in time for the Man Utd, Red Star and Atletico games, these last paradoxically with weakened teams.They have all given us the better part of two decades'growth, excitement and success, albeit in fast diminishing rations of late.
And I'm not minded to sign up for petitions.
I am however dismayed by the abject nature of our apparent capitulation and impotence within our current context. I'd like everyone at the club to step back and both see and acknowledge the insult to us BWFC fans and to football in general through the myopic approach to the Lisbon game ( and indeed to previous League and FA cups: might we have got to an FA Cup final in Millwall's year, I wonder?)- and this unilaterally on behalf of BWFC and with no qualifications born of the fact that we obviously aren't the only club to commit these disgraceful errors of judgment..
In my opinion if board and/or current manager are in any way honourable, we should see some resignations if not now than at the season's end.
We need these and a fresh start under a new policy-one part of which will be to give at all times our best shot in all cups-realistically our only chance of real success.
It isn't after all a Sidney Carton like sacrifice that's called for. It's not the guillotine they face.They won't go straight to the poor house. It's surely just a matter of honour and respect for football and in particular BWFC and its traditions and the many years of devotion fans have collectively given often without counting the escalating costs.
And the resignations and apologies will be all the more respected and acceptable if through these last five games we survive boldly or at least go down fighting and caring!
Some kind comments above re my earlier post. Thanks,GC, Steve Battersby and Dee.If they do print any of it, I do hope they correct some of the errant grammar!
The important thing to me is that you are all acknowledging what is a plea for perspective and rationality, albeit in my case and probably most of yours, driven by emotion.
It's difficult to see how the self-feeding monster that the Premier League has become can be reformed. Somehow it needs a better balance of private sector, community and maybe even government interests ( whether of FIFA or politicians). Or maybe it will in due course just all come crashing down, all of a sudden, with financial collapse, a super European or Global league or perhaps with global competition from China or wherever. We can only wait and see
Meanwhile our beloved BWFC may just be better off in the Championship than the Premier League. Personally after 48 years of being a supporter, I'm ambivalent about that.
I am of course, as everyone on this forum, desperately disappointed about our form and the fare on offer.The issues are, for me,bigger though than arguing the toss about the relative merits of Big Sam, Sammy Lee, Megson or AN Other Messiah who may or may not be on the horizon. I think we should all be deeply grateful especially to Big Sam,but also in turn to Sammy Lee and Phil Brown as his assistants and indeed to Colin Todd and Bruce Rioch.I'd even extend said gratitude to board members and owner. If pus
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